Episode Transcript
Pod Emily Lynn Paulson
Deb: Welcome back to the Alcohol Tipping Point Podcast. I am your host, Deb Masner. I'm a registered nurse, health coach and alcohol free badass. And today on the show I have Emily Lynn Paulson. She is a writer, speaker, certified professional recovery coach, and the founder of. Sober Mom Squad. She is also the author of the bestselling book, Highlight Reel, finding Honesty and Recovery Beyond The Filtered Life.
And she has a new book that'll be coming out next year, I think, and it's called, Hey Hun, sales Sisterhood, SU Supremacy, and Other Lives of Multi-Level Marketing. So, welcome Emily. Glad to have you here. Thanks for having. Well, I just wanna say hi from Idaho. We're in neighboring states cuz you're just over in Oregon, is that right?
Emily: Yeah, we're not too far away, actually.
Deb: Oh, that's perfect Ken. Well first just tell me and tell our listeners a little bit about who you are and what you
Emily: do. Yeah, so I always have a hard time when people say, what do you do for a living? I'm like well, I work with women in recovery and I write books, and I'm a mom and I kind of do dabble in a whole bunch of stuff.
But really it all started from my recovery journey. I got sober almost six years ago now. and I started my journey really kind of diving into like how I got there. And a lot of that was writing. I did a lot of writing around just things that happened in my childhood as a young adult and I also did a lot of reading.
I read a lot of recovery memoirs, all the quit lit. I read all of it and it was super helpful to me. So, , once I got to around two years sober and I had done all this journaling, all this writing, I basically had this 40 year chronology of my entire life. And I thought, wouldn't it be great if there was just another story out there, because I'm sure you know, this would help somebody even it was just one person.
And so I sought to publish that really as a book. So I started the. Publishing process. And while I was doing that, I was like, you know, I should probably get more credentialed than just, you know, a woman who got sober and all, while that's all valid and stories are amazing, I was like, I really wanna know more scientifically about this.
So, I did studies and or courses in facilitating addiction awareness and recovery coach training without the thought that I would actually go into working one-on-one with women. I thought I would just learn about the process, about myself and be a little bit more credentialed going into publishing a book.
And then when the book came out you know, I had gone through all these trainings and I had started working with women you know, to do my, my hours for, for coaching. And I just discovered I really loved it, . And so I decided I would start doing recovery coaching and I was working one-on-one with women who really had stories like mine.
And then 2020 happened and we all know what happened there. Everything went completely, you know, online and all of a sudden I had all five of my kids home. So I couldn't work one-on-one with women. Now, just, it wasn't feasible. And so, The other thing that happened is, you know, addiction rates started skyrocketing liver disease and women started skyrocketing.
And there was all of this interest suddenly in talking about addiction. And so I was being asked to write articles, I was being asked for interviews, and I thought, okay, what can I actually do here that's helpful? And so I asked a few other sober women on Instagram, do you wanna help me have a meeting weekly?
We started having a free meeting for moms, specifically moms because we. Well, a lot of recovery organizations pivoted. There wasn't a space just just for moms who were looking to cut down on their drinking. So I started having a me weekly meeting. It just continued to grow. There was a lot more interest and it turned into what now is the sober mom squad.
Community. So that really has been my journey. That's where I'm at. And through that recovery process again, then I, you know, started working my way to writing my next book. So again, it's like the long-winded, what do you do for a living? That's that. There it is.
Deb: Yeah. That's so great. I'm, I'm glad that you brought up sober mom squad, cuz I was gonna ask you about that.
Yeah. And I had kind of heard the background about how that got started, and I think that's so cool because you do see a lot of moms with issues with drinking, you know, and it starts in motherhood, right? What, what was your drinking story? How did you recover? .
Emily: Yeah, so I think part of why Silver Mom Squad came about was I really had this very long period of time where I knew alcohol was not serving me.
I knew that it was a problem but yet I didn't feel like I fit the mold of needing to quit. Like I didn't have any major consequences yet. I didn't have any health problems yet, and I would give it up for a while. And I used the fact that I could stop drinking when I was pregnant, you know, five times as kind of a reason that I didn't have a problem.
Right. And I used the people around me. And the fact, again, this mom wine culture where it's on mugs and t-shirts and it's so funny, ha ha ha. As really. Motivation to keep going and to continue to try and, you know, fit this square pig in this round hole that I knew didn't fit. And I think for so long there was nowhere for me to go.
And it wasn't until I started having those major consequences, I got in trouble with the law. I got a D U I, I had problems with my marriage. I had problems with my health that I had to quit. And people were very much in my corner like, oh. We see you've filled X, Y, and Z now. Yes, for sure. Quit. Here's our support.
And so once I started unraveling all that, I thought, wouldn't it be great if there was a place for women in that period of time? Even if it's just you don't like your one glass of wine a night, you don't like how you're feeling in the morning, you don't like that your kid can smell alcohol in your breath, whatever it is, you don't like those stupid t-shirts and tchotchke mugs.
Come and talk about it with us. So I really believe. You know, I, I, I, I, for so long felt like it. I was othering myself, you know, like, I have a problem, other people don't. It's me, it's me. And I found that I'm, I'm not unique . And while we're all special and we're all, you know, wonderfully made, like it's very.
It's very common that when you use an addictive substance, you will become addicted to it. And so taking the stigma away of like, you either have a problem or you don't, and that it's actually a huge spectrum and don't be afraid to talk about it. So, you know, that's, that's kind of how I, I started to look at it more as, You know, there wasn't anything wrong with me,
And so yeah, so my story was, you know, I, I, I felt like I used alcohol to cope with things. And I can look back again. So much of this is done, you know. Looking back, hindsight's 2020. I can see that I used it to fit in. I used it to take away anxiety. I used it to take the edge off all of those things that are supposed to be good.
Like you learn, those are like good reasons to drink, right? And they actually just created a need for themselves. So yeah, again, another long-winded answer to your question, but .
Deb: No, it's great. So since you work with moms and what do you find is the biggest challenge for moms who want to quit drinking?
A lot of times
Emily: it is that belief that, again, the, the circumstances around you, the evidence around you that will, everyone's drinking this much you know that there's play dates with wine at 10:00 AM. Why is my one glass of wine a night a, a problem? I think it's the, the expectation of what alcohol addiction looks like or what rock bottom looks like or whatever, keeps a lot of women drinking a lot longer than they want to.
And I think the prescribed nature of alcohol that it's like, , it's really societally prescribed for stress. Like, oh, you've got kids, you need wine. You know, you can't you can't parent it without wine. Oh, homeschooling, oh, you need more wine. It's, it's just this kind of idea that it's like infused in our culture that you need alcohol to parent.
And so I think fighting against those stigmas, fighting against the beliefs that a lot of people have of like, it makes you more fun. It cuts down your anxiety, it does all those things. And really getting to the bottom of. Is that really true? I think that's, that's the, the biggest conflict a lot of women have that they're like, well, I know that I don't like how I feel in the morning.
I know that I, you know, I don't like when I can't drive because I've had too much drink. I don't like that I'm not present for my kids. But what other options am I. And in so many ways, it's like society has failed. Moms in, in such a huge way. We don't have, you know, paid leave, we don't have help, we don't have a village, and of course we're given this solution.
So I think those are the biggest things, is just, okay if I don't, if I don't go to this stress reliever, this wine, which actually doesn't relieve stress or do any of those things, but that's another story. What option am I given? What support do I have? And so getting to the bottom of why are you drinking in the first.
I think is where that all needs to go back to.
Deb: Yeah. I, I know that when I had young kids, I was like, that's when I was drinking the most, when they were like preschool, kindergarten, well not even as much kindergarten, but Yeah, preschool when they're home all day, you're with them all day. And it was just a way to like still physically be present but mentally check
Emily: out.
Yeah. And escape.
Deb: Totally. And so what, what kind of like practical tools do you have for people and women or moms who are giving up alcohol? Like what do they do at night instead? How are they, how do they cope instead? Yeah,
Emily: so I think, again, going back to. When you are feeling like, oh, I want that glass of wine, and you reach for it, like, what are you trying to numb, cure, fix, heal.
Like what's the feeling? And if it's overwhelm, if it's anxiety, if it's. Whatever, like look at what other things may help. And some people don't actually know. I honestly, that's how I was. It was like, okay, well how do I reduce my stress if I don't drink? That's what I do. And finding what actually works.
So if you think, okay, I have had a long dance, super stressed out. , I am gonna try and go, you know, run on the treadmill for 20 minutes or something, or I'm gonna put the baby in the stroller and I'm gonna get outside and go for a walk. It'll be great for both of us. Or I'm gonna, you know, have a little dance party with my toddlers or, you know, just is giving yourself space to give an option that may actually help before you go to the thing.
Definitely won't. Like alcohol, will numb alcohol, will delay alcohol, will, you know, temper feelings, but it will never actually fix anything. And so trying to think of ways. That that will actually help. And sometimes this goes back to again, the systemic part of it, of, okay, if I'm feeling overwhelmed every day at five, maybe I need my partner to come swoop in for a little bit so I can take a breather and go take a bath.
And that's not always feasible. You know, maybe me and the kids need to you know, have a little spa day or something, or paint our toenails. I don't know. But just what is the feeling underneath? and if it is something that I can help another way, let like, let's try that first. Let's try something that helps.
Deb: Yeah, I, I think what happens is you kind of get, I, I mean, it's such a habit, right? Mm-hmm. and, and it's just a go-to and it works really quick. And so just taking that moment to like pause and then think like, okay, what, what is something else? What do I need? And then what is something else I can do instead?
Yeah.
Emily: Yeah, definitely.
Deb: What, what are some of your other tips for people who are looking to change their drinking?
Emily: So, I think it depends on the reasons you're drinking. You know, if you're a person, if you're a mom, who again, drinks to cope, drinks to deal with overwhelm I think giving yourself grace and compassion is the biggest thing because it's such a spiraling shame cycle.
Of, you know, you wake up in the morning with the best of intentions and you know, I'm not gonna end the day today like I did last night. I'm not gonna wake up hung hungover tomorrow, but willpower only goes so far. And so if you get to the end of the day and you just tapped out and that's your coping mechanism and you go to it again, and then you wake up, it's just this constant shame spiral.
So taking a step back and just saying, okay, so I did that last night. What did it, what did it actually accomplish? And taking judgment out of it. Waking up in the morning saying, okay, so I don't feel top of my game today. , you know, I, I, I drank last night and, you know, today I'm not as like clearheaded as I'd like to be.
Okay. You know, just, just being very pragmatic about it and not judgmental and really, Just taking that evidence for yourself and that will help inform your choices going forward. So the next night when you're like, okay, I'm really feeling that feeling, I wanna numb out, I want to escape de-stress, whatever.
But gosh, I remember this morning, I, I, it didn't help because I woke up more anxious. I woke up at 3:00 AM whatever. So I'm gonna try something else. I. and, and again, without shaming yourself, without just saying like, okay, I'm going to investigate this a little bit further. Like getting curious and having compassion for yourself.
And I think the biggest reminder, and this is what I say to every woman who even questions their drinking at all or is ever done a Google search, you know, am I an alcoholic? Is, it's not your fault for getting addicted to an addictive. No one blames someone who's trying to quit smoking. Nobody blames someone who's trying to quit.
You know, cocaine, any other addictive substance we don't expect people to moderate, and we don't expect them to explain why they don't use it or apologize when they're trying to quit. So again, that reframe and just reminding yourself that, oh yes, this is an addictive substance. This is not my fault, and I'm gonna see if I can get a little more curious about.
Deb: Yeah, I love it. I, I think that self-compassion and the curiosity, it's so important. I have something that I like to say a lot and it's data, not drama. Yeah. So just, you know, because you're right cuz you just layer on the judgment and the shame, you know, if you can just be very scientific about it. Okay.
Last night I had four eight ounce. cups of ethanol, . Yeah. , period, right? Yeah. The judgment, the, the drama comes when you're like, oh my gosh, I'm never gonna quit. I'm terrible. Like I'm never gonna get this. Mm-hmm. . And so it's just one way to kind of move on and move
Emily: forward. Yeah. Well,
Deb: what, how about, cuz you are six years sober.
Mm-hmm. , is that right? Mm-hmm. . Yeah. Congratulations. What, what keeps you sober? What helps with the longevity?
Emily: Honestly, learning more about what alcohol actually is. I mean, cuz very quickly once I quit, a lot of my health problems started going away. You know, my anxiety started to be decreased even though it was tough in those social situations, sometimes, you know, there's, there was some dust that had to settle with friendships and my relationship with my husband.
You know, all that eventually worked itself out. But I had so much evidence right off the bat that quitting alcohol helped. And I obviously knew this cuz I had attempted to quit other times before and thought, well, I'm healed. I'm gonna go back to it , you know, which is its own, you know. Weird thought process, but I had so much evidence that I knew not drinking was the way for me, for my life, my health, you know, just not getting arrested, all those things.
Right? And it was about, again, two, when I was around, two years sober and I started doing more research and I started taking courses that I really learned so much more about it. I thought, gosh, why don't they teach this in school? Like, why did I not know that alcohol actually makes anxiety worse? Even though I have this evidence now cuz my anxiety's better.
This is like the chemical reasons for it. This is the brain pathways, all the things that get messed up. You know, learning about the marketing of it, learning about the money tied up in alcohol, just learning about all the behind the scenes stuff that I maybe didn't want to look. Really just cemented that this is not something that is, for me, it's, it's of no interest to me.
And it's funny cuz people will say like, okay, if you knew, if you knew it was your last day on earth, would you have a drink? And I'm like, no. Why would I wanna ruin my last day on Earth? That's, that's where my brain goes now, is there's, I find no benefit in it, so why would I drink it?
Deb: Hmm. Yeah. . And so your life has changed a lot since you quit drinking.
And one of the big things that is, you know, you, you wrote another book about leaving your m l m Yeah. And uncovering kind of the truth behind that. Like you spoke about the truth about alcohol and drinking. So can you share a little bit about this book that's coming out and how that tied into drinking and sobriety?
Yeah,
Emily: absolutely. It seems like a very different book. I mean, the first book's very much a memoir, and this is. , it's a industry insider Look, it's a polemic, but it's also a continuation really, of my memoir. And it's interesting now, if you read my first book, how you can still see that I was in that mindset even though I was kind of divor divorcing myself from it.
It's interesting now reading back, but it was very much part of my alcohol story because. , I was looking for something just like people when they look for wine or you know, toxic relationships or whatever. I was looking for community, and again, it kind of goes back to those systemic things that women are looking for when they reach for the wine.
And for me it was, you know, I was kind of at this place where I was flailing in life looking for something, and I knew we were done having kids and I didn't know what my next thing was. And I kind of clung. You know, business opportunity and this community that came with it. And I really got roped in very quickly to all the pomp and circumstance and the culty language, and it really took over my life for several years.
And when I got sober I started realizing, wow you know, I can't do some of these things anymore. I can't say so many things, these things anymore, cuz all of a sudden my intuition's coming back online. Some of these things I'm saying, these cold messages I'm sending feel icky now. And so I had to start examining like, What feels weird about this?
What don't I like about this? It really was my, like all of a sudden my intuition was flooding back and I started looking more into it and started really confronting those uncomfortable feelings, just like without alcohol, you know, figuring out what really works. And so as I continued in my sobriety journey, I just realized that I could not part.
in the M MLM anymore. I did a lot of research around it. I interviewed hundreds of people and you know, that's how my book came about. It was just something that I felt like needed to be out there because I think what we have a lack of, you can google anything, you can find anything you want, but we have a lack of informed consent.
And especially with things like alcohol, with things like MLMs that. They sell something that's way too good to be true. This will fix all your problems. This will give you financial freedom. This will, whatever, fill in the blank. And I think it's important, even when you've been involved in something that you find is detrimental, you know, it's even more important to talk about it.
Cuz I was complicit in it for a lot of years. So just sharing what I learned was really important to me.
Deb: Yeah. Yeah. So mlm, so that's multi-level marketing. Yes. And you, you talk about how it's like a cult, is that right? Yes. Can you explain that a little bit more?
Emily: Yeah. So when people hear that, they're like, oh, come on.
You know. But I think we've all seen, you know, you've seen posts on social media, It's a bunch of white women, you know, on a cruise together or whatever, and the way they talk about their products, that it is like the holy grail, you know? Oh, this community is everything. This, these products are, everything.
Everything's life changing. Everything is, it's, it's big. It's huge. It's. It's all roped in and we'll give you everything. It's this utopia, right? And usually you're talking about like collagen supplements, and essential oils. And so it's the inflation of importance of things of people. It's this very hierarchical.
Structure where you start at the bottom and you have to work your way up. And so it's this idea of meritocracy where, oh, if you work harder, you'll make it. But that's statistically not possible, and it's actually not true. There's no piece of research that will show you that MLMs are a good financial decision or that it has anything to do with your hard work.
It really. . You know, if you have a big network that has a lot of money you may do okay. If you get in early, you may do okay, but over 90% of people don't. Over 90% of people not only don't make money, they actually lose money. And so it's so interesting to see people who, and I was one of these people, which is why I share this, who are so certain that this is the.
To everybody that will help them with whatever ails them, their, their finances, their poor social life, their whatever, their skin, their body, and. , it really doubles down on diet culture, doubles down on what it looks like to be a woman, what you're supposed to look like. It doubles down on all of those things that we are insecure about anyway.
Puts a price tag on them and it's it's just really insidious. So the cruelty aspect of it. isn't necessarily that, you know, there's people doing rituals and like drinking blood and sacrificing people. It's the fact that you subscribe to this one belief, this one way of thinking that this is the path for you.
This is the path for everybody. You do these things and you succeed. And if you don't, it's your fault. There's a lot of loaded language, there's a lot of coercion. And again, it's. Systematic breakdown of your intuition. You know, I know it feels gross to send a cold message, but, you know, send in anyway.
If people tell you no, it means not right now. Keep following up. Just the, the things that feel gross and they say, okay, I know this is gonna be uncomfortable, but lean into your discomfort and all these platitudes and buzzwords to get you to do things that you wouldn't normally. . And so it's this bizarre sameness that keeps people trapped in even when they're not making money, even when they don't actually have any success to follow up on.
But they're in this closed organization that's telling them what they wanna hear, that's love bombing them. So yeah, I mean, it has all of the , all of the markers for a cult, all of the, you know, behavior control, information control, thought control, emotional control. But yet, Hidden behind selling leggings and skincare and kitchen products.
So it's extremely culty. Wow. It's so
Deb: interesting cuz it makes me just think about alcohol, these MLMs, like, it's just kind of like the exploitation of women and taking advantage of, of women and mothers especially being lonely and, and looking to fill themselves with something. .
Emily: Yeah. Because it's sold as empowerment.
Right? And you don't have to, you look at alcohol ads, right? Women who, they're having fun and they're drinking with the men. It's sold as this like empowerment thing. And so is MLMs. It's, I'm a she e o, and I'm, you know, I am, I'm fierce and I'm a entrepreneur. All these like, Feminist cringey hashtags. It's sold as this empowerment thing, but at the heart of it, you're working, you're not even working for a corporation.
You are an unpaid contract worker who may make some money or, but you'll probably lose a lot of money and you are filling a corporation with billions of. and the CEO of it is probably a man, probably a white man, right? So it, it, again, it sold us this feminist empowerment project, but the only people being a power of people at the top and the corporations that people in MLMs usually malign, right?
Like, don't work for the corporate America, come be your own boss. But that's where the money is going. It's, it's all very, yeah, it's all just loaded.
Deb: Interesting. Yeah. And I can see how the, you know, you being sober and just like finding your true, you know, I, authentic self. I think when people get sober, like a veil is lifted and you do, you have to feel everything.
You, you don't have like this buffer anymore. You're not buffering. And so you find yourself in a life where you're like, what am I doing? Like, why I've been tolerating. With alcohol. Mm-hmm. . And now I've removed the alcohol and I'm not gonna tolerate it anymore. Yes. And so, yeah, I think that's really cool.
And And brave of you too, like I've seen some social media attacks on you from some MLM women. Right. Well,
Emily: and what's interesting about that is those attacks really just make it look so much more culty because. Honestly, you know, I, if I were an employee of McDonald's, right? And I was like, McDonald's sucks, I don't wanna work here anymore.
I'm gonna quit and I'm gonna talk about why it sucks. The likelihood that I could still be friends with the employees who worked at the McDonald's, or that they may agree with some of the things I said is pretty high, right? Even though they may say face and, you know, not, not talk badly about the company in public cause they don't wanna lose our jobs.
But it's completely different in an MLM because if. Talk badly about it at all. You're a hater, you're a suppressive person. You just didn't work hard enough. And so the attacks come from this place of I'm not gonna use any critical thinking. , I'm not gonna agree that anything she's saying is true. Not even a little bit.
I just have to go on the attack cuz I have to continue to support all these lives I've been told. Or what does it say about me? You know, that I have been selling this system, that this dream that doesn't exist, right? So it's this very much reactive place. And I understand it cuz I've been there. I I've totally been there.
But when you look at it, you can see very clearly the lack of critical thinking. And, and so just for me to be able to say, this is my side of it. And hey, if you've got another take, share it on your social media. Find, go research and write your own book. I mean, you won't find any research that shows that it's a good thing.
But go, but go to town. And what's cult here than not allowing someone else to have a different opinion. Right.
Deb: Well, I think what like is so important about this conversation is we, you, you know, like when we are kind of stuck in that mommy drinking culture or you're stuck in that m l m culture or whatever, just recognizing like you, you're not stuck and we can learn more, we can grow, we can change our mind just because we thought this at one point, like this was our story before.
We can change our story and that's what makes humans interesting. Like we can change our mind, we can change our thinking, we can make new choices and we can have new
Emily: lives. Yeah. And I think leaving that little bit of space in anything, like what if I'm not a hundred percent right about this? Mm-hmm. , and that goes for anything like what if I'm not a hundred percent.
About all the things I'm saying with my M L M. I think letting yourself off the hook of like maybe, I don't know, everything, I think that's, that can allow for a lot of growth. You know, what if I'm not exactly right that alcohol is numbing my anxiety? What if I'm not exactly right that this is making me more fun?
Mm-hmm. allows you to be more curious about what's really going on. Even if you're right, you could. But you also might not be right . And that's where I was able to really uncover all of this stuff because I was willing to say all this stuff I've been saying and sharing, gosh, what if it's not true? All the stuff I've been repeating that my company tells me to say all the stuff I've been copy and pasting from my upline.
What if it's actually not true? Yeah. That's
Deb: so, so insightful. I mean, it's hard to, to get to that place, but it's so important to be open-minded. We, our society in general, we're just, we're very black and white. We put things into two categories, you know, Democrat or republic or, you know, it doesn't matter what it working, ho stay at home mom, alcoholic, normal, drinker like it.
It's good to have the gray areas. It's good to like examine all different sides and not just get stuck in your rut and your bubble. Like expand that. Yeah, exactly. Oh, very cool. Well, I'm very excited for it to come out. I think it will be really interesting. . So what are your plans for the future?
Emily: Oh my gosh. So honestly, I mean I still, you know, obviously Silver Miles squad has still gone strong and so just continuing to evolve with that and.
You know, my book comes out in May, so I am just writing that wave of what comes, obviously podcast interviews and we'll see how sales are. I might do a book tour. But other than that, my, you know, my son's graduating this year and so I'm just trying to enjoy really the last year of like having all five kids under my roof and trying to lean into that.
Balance all the things. But yeah, the book really is kind of the next thing and then I kind of will see what goes from there. Honestly, that's how I feel like I've been operating the last, at least since Covid. Being open to just like, okay, what happens next? And not trying to control everything is really, that's really how it's been.
Good. So that's why I'm going.
Deb: Oh, that's great. Well, how can someone find you? So
Emily: you can find me on Emily Lynn Paulson on pretty much all platforms. Emily Lynn paulson.com and on Instagram Facebook, I'm not on their a ton, but same site TikTok. I'm hardly ever on there, but you can find me there if you want.
And then Silver Mom Squad, again, it's Silver Mom Squad on all.
Deb: Well, that's great. Well, thank you. I really appreciate you taking the time. I'm excited for that book to come out and congratulations on your sobriety and helping other people, helping moms just wake up and experience life differently. Yeah.
Emily: Well, thank you so much for having me. Yeah, it was nice to meet you.
