Rethink the Nightcap: Alcohol and Sleep

Deb: Welcome back to the Alcohol Tipping Point Podcast. I am your host, Deb Mayner. I'm a Reg registered nurse. I'm a health coach, and I'm an alcohol-free badass. And today on the show I have Terry Cralle. She is from the Better Sleep Council. She is also a registered nurse. Shout out to the nurses. Yay. She's a certified clinical sleep educator and she's a certified professional in healthcare quality, specializing in sleep, health and wellness. So I think you all can guess what we're gonna talk about today. It's sleep . Terry: Okay. You're right, Deb . Nice to be here. Thanks for having me. Deb: Well, welcome Terry. I am so glad you're here. I th I think I was just telling you before we started recording, like I, I feel like we could talk about a lot. So let's just get started. So, first of all, like, why, why is sleep so important? . Terry: Oh, I, why? Why isn't it? I mean, it just, it's one of those things we haven't given it much attention. I think a lot of people are guilty of not respecting it, not knowing it much about it. So I'm here to change all that and hopefully today your listeners will walk away with a different attitude and sort of more curiosity about sleep and really understand. I have a better understanding. Many of the benefits because it's, it's just an amazing thing. And if more of us got more sleep, we'd be happier and healthier and more productive and more successful. . Deb: Yeah, I think you're right. We, we take it for granted and there's that whole saying like, oh, I'll sleep when I'm dead. You know? It's like, absolutely. Oh, I don't have time. Right. I heard that you could go longer without food and water than sleep. Is that true? Terry: That's true. Yeah. Yep. I mean, it's, it's a pretty devastating thing and I think, I mean, and it's relatively new sort of a subspecialty in medicine. And when you think of the other you know, psychiatry and endocrinology and every single thing out there, sleep is relatively new on their horizons, you know, in. Forties and fifties, they started doing some, some real basic research, but still it's in that new phase and it's exciting and it's compelling and just we're, we're making new discoveries all the time and they're very eye-opening. So I think we're going to see a huge shift in the way we think about sleep and how we are going to start protecting it and, and just sort of approaching it differently. I. Deb, one of the analogies I like to use is how smoking was so prevalent back in the day. I, I'm, I remember going to restaurants and my father just lighting up a cigarette in the restaurant and blowing smoke in our faces and, you know, smoking in the car with all of us kids in the car. And we, we didn't realize how dangerous it was. Now we do and think of how different everything is. I mean, I remember. When I was right out of nursing school, taking care of patients in the hospital who would be smoking in bed, and we'd walk in and say, no, you're supposed to smoke out in the hallway. You know, we just, we didn't get it. So now we're looking at sleep deprivation. Similarly, you know, we, we have not fully understood the dangers of sleep deprivation, and now we're starting to get it, and I think you're going to. , like I said, a big paradigm shift in the way we all approach it. We're not gonna look at it as being lazy or sort of having, you know, a poor character. We've always characterized sleep or needing sleep as being lazy or not ambitious, or not busy or not successful. I think if we start looking at it, Being a responsibility of ours, you know, for, for o our lives and the lives of our loved ones. You know, drowsy driving is as dangerous, as drunk driving. It's as serious of a problem. So I think we're going to look at sleep differently and realize the dangers of sleep deprivation and approach it according. Deb: Yeah, so I think it's interesting that you compared it to the paradigm shift with smoking because mm-hmm. , a lot of what I do is educate about alcohol and, and the harmful effects of alcohol on your health and how, right. We are starting to see more and more evidence. That no, there's no safe level of alcohol for your health as far as cancer risk and, and heart disease and liver disease and, and all of that. So let's tie these two together. How mm-hmm. , how does alcohol affect our sleep? Terry: And, and so back in the day, have you ever heard that term nightcap? It's sort of an old school term. Yeah. But you know, it's the nightcap. Using alcohol, people would use it, you know, back in the day. And currently as a sleep aid. And the research has shown that it is anything but a sleep aid. And in fact, it's just horrible, horrible for our sleep. And so if you just tease that out, You know that it leads to fragmented disrupted sleep, which leads to sleep deprivation, and then all of the health, I mean, very dangerous health consequences of sleep deprivation. So in addition to ones you just mentioned, I mean, think of when we don't get enough sleep. We have increased our risk for very serious health conditions, heart disease, kidney disease, stroke diabetes gosh, I mean, there are several cancers related to sleep deprivation, Alzheimer's, dementia. These are serious. And potentially life-threatening diseases that are tied to lack of sleep. So when you think about alcohol's effect on sleep, you see this very dangerous you know, combination. And there really is, you know, it, it is just so sad to forfeit a, a night of sleep, you know, of healthy, good sleep that we need to be our best in every sense of the word. And, and just understanding how. Disruptive alcohol is to getting that sleep that we need. So it really, I mean, if you understand the consequences a and the effects that alcohol has on sleep, you're really going to rethink very seriously your alcohol if, if you do drink. I mean, how, how really it is messing with, with everything and undoing the benefits of, of. and you know, is it really worth that, that risk? I mean, it, it, it's it, it's a problem and I think people unfortunately and out of ignorance have, and just not having the knowledge looked at alcohol or currently look at it as a sleep aid. Like I said, it's anything, but, but people get in this horrible, vicious cycle of, They'll, they might have insomnia. Okay. Let's just say someone has insomnia. They don't get help for it, which there is help for it, which is cognitive behavioral therapy for insomnia. I'll get to that later. But instead of going to a sleep physician and getting that help, they reach for alcohol because that at first it'll give you sort of that sleepy feeling. And, and give people that, that feeling of relaxation and sleepiness and they fall asleep thinking it's helping them sleep, but it's not because later in the night as it metabolizes, it's truly wreaking havoc on your sleep. But then the person wait, you know, doesn't get a good night's sleep. So the next day. They're sleepy. They could do number of things, stimulants, caffeine throughout the day to try to stay awake. They feel terrible. They're doing terribly. They, they have health problems, all of these things. So then they're more likely. . I mean, it becomes a cycle where they do the alcohol again, and then the tolerance occurs to that initial sleepy feeling after drinking alcohol before bedtime. So as the tolerance grows, so does the amount of alcohol to achieve that sleepy feeling. And you see already. For my description, it you're, you're in a mess. A complete mess. So it's a really sad thing when people start with insomnia, but then try to self-medicate with alcohol. And we tell people, that's why we always sort of back up and say, look, when you have a sleep problem, get help. People tend. to get medical help for colds more than they get help for sleep problems. I mean, sleep is a vital sign and we have to look at sleep as something we discuss at every healthcare provider encounter cuz it's so vital to our, our basic fundamental wellbeing and health. So that we have to really make it a vital sign. So when people start having trouble with sleep, there are effective ways to manage it. And if, you know, get screened, see if you have a sleep disorder, get it treated and managed. There are over 80 sleep disorders out there, but we can, we can treat these and it's not always with medication. Cognitive behavioral therapy for insomnia. Is effective. It helps people, it's available in person and online. So there's it, it's a sad situation cuz there's, there's wonderful resources and, and effective therapies that we have for sleep disorders and I hate to see people reach for alcohol to, to. In an effort, you know, to, to solve those problems when it doesn't need to go there. And then if someone's drinking, say if they don't have a sleep problem, they're more likely to develop it if they're drinking close to bedtime or drinking excessively and, and just maybe not. Realizing all the harm that it's doing. And the unfortunate thing with sleep and sleep deprivation, people lose their, their point of reference. They forget what it feels like to wake up alert and refreshed and have a productive day to feel happy, to feel motivated, to feel optimistic. And so when you've got a combination of sleep prob, sleep deprivation, and alcohol use, you know, then we get into really, really tricky. Area of depression and anxiety and suicidal ideation that stem from both. I mean, it can get out of hand rather quickly. So I really caution people to learn about it and to really think carefully about how they approach, you know, what they're doing at night. Can they swap a different behavior out? Are they looking. To alcohol, to relax, to help them sleep. Put about some, you know, swap it out for tea, do something relaxing at night to help you do yoga. I mean, there are all these wonderful things that really do help people fall asleep, relax, fall asleep, and stay asleep, that don't involve alcohol at all, or even some medications. I mean, there's some natural ways to do it, and I think if people will just take a little bit of effort and time to get that. They're just gonna feel better and, and likely have a whole different day. And when you have a whole different day, you're gonna have a whole different night. So education is, is a good thing and, and I just hope people can look, change the way they look at it. Deb: Yeah, I mean, it sounds like alcohol can cause sleeping disorders, but it can also be masking sleeping disorders, right? I , I like to equate like four hours of alcohol free sleep for me, like any day. Sure. Beats 10 hours of alcohol infused sleep, Absolut. And what I've read is that the alcohol, you know, behi besides being like it dehydrates you mm-hmm. , so you end up having to go to the bathroom. Mm-hmm. more it stimulates your kidneys to have to go to the bathroom more at night. Right. And then it's a depressant. , and then your stimulants kick in to counteract it. Your depressant effects. So then you're, you wake up in the middle of the night because you've mm-hmm. loaded your body with depressants and now your body's gotta compensate. So you wake up anxious in the middle of the night. Absolutely. And then also that it affects your r e m sleep. Mm-hmm. , which we need. Why do we need r e m sleep? Why don't we even need Terry: sleep? Oh, no, no one knows. I mean, we don't know . We just . Deb: This is from the safe expert . Terry: Who knows? But we all do it. We have to do it or we die. I mean, it's just, it, it's, it's one of those. Great mysteries of life. We'll, we'll figure it out someday. But, you know, REM sleep is very important for cognitive physical restoration. It's tied into our longevity. S REM sleep is, well, the all stages are important, but that deep sleep and REM are, are highly affected and impacted by alcohol negatively, of course. So we, we really have to be protective. We have to be protective of our sleep period. And then how we approach it. , but really it's such the, the alcohol is such a major sleep disruptor. That, that it's, it, it, it's a shame, you know, we, we need that sleep and we do need it as consistently as possible every night and most adults. Deb, really very few short sleepers. In our population, less than 1% are true short sleepers. They have that genetic variant. The rest of us have about seven to nine hours that we should be getting as adults at night. Of course, kids need a lot more. But we really have to carve that timeout. In our schedules. And I, you know, and I do have people come to me and say, that's just unrealistic. We're busy people. We've got a lot to do. I don't have time for that. But, you know, I find there have been surveys. I mean, a lot of Americans, what is it? Watch, they watch five hours of television a day. I mean, those numbers like that blow my mind. And then, you know, then they come back and say, Terry, I don't have time to get sleep. And yeah, you do , you do, you do have time. And, and we have to, you know, we used to look at sleep as one of the. Three pillars of health and wellness. We had sleep, diet, and exercise. We really don't look at it in that model anymore. We look at it sort of in a, as a triangle, but sleep is the foundation, diet and exercise, and ultimately health and wellbeing are completely dependent on that base of sleep. That makes up the foundation. Our metabolism depends on our sleep, our motivation, energy, stamina, all depend on our sleep, the way we think, how we think, how we do depends on how much sleep and the quality of sleep we're getting. So we're really talking. not just physical health, but our mental health, our general wellbeing, and literally our quality of life depends on that sleep. So that's why I s I'm so passionate about educating about the deleterious effects of alcohol on that sleep. I mean, I think we all have to be more protective of our sleep, whether it's scheduling it during. in our busy lives, really carving out that time and, and making time for it, but protecting it in terms of quality. You know, I talk to people about this sleep environment. We really need a dark bedroom. What you, you know, whether it's blackout shades or wearing a sleep mask, the darker the better. We need a cool environment. We need to. You know, as we, as we really need to start paying more attention to sleep, we pay attention to everything that helps us get that good night of sleep in terms of do we have a comfortable mattress? How old is the mattress? If it's, you know, been around for, we can't remember how when we last bought a new one. Rethink it. There are new technologies out there. They're new materials. Bedding is our bedding comfortable? What are we wearing to sleep in, you know? I think we have to, you know, we've looked at this in terms of diet and exercise, but we really in the past haven't sort of put in enough time and attention to sleep quality as we do the foods we're eating, you know, where they come from, are they organic? What are the, you know, all, all of these things, the, the sodium, the, the fat content let's, we look at different aspects of our exercise and activity, but. As well turn the same attention level of attention to sleep, cuz it has to be about quantity and quality. And then again, we don't wanna trade, we don't wanna d take away any sleep hours in, in an attempt to get more waking hours to get more done. We want. Because that's a formula that doesn't work. We get more done and we do it better when we're well rested. And I think that's sort of a hard sell. , you know, I, I feel sometimes, you know, people, people still don't wanna hear it because, , if you really drill down, sleep has a negative connotation to a lot of people. Whether, you know, I remember as a teenager being my, I mean, bless his heart, my father would just kind of, you know, yell, get outta bed. Get outta bed. You're being lazy, you know, come time to get up. You know, if you're sleeping past 10:00 AM you're lazy, or you're, you know, it just, you're on a path. No ambition or, or something. I'm just trying to think of all the characteristics I hear people describe to me. And we look at it sort of as a luxury but not as a biological necessity. And again, I think if we sort of change the way we look at sleep, we might change the way we treat our sleep, which will include how we. Drink or not drink before, but we eat when we eat. If someone has an alcoholic beverage in the evening, what time do they do that? Having a drink right before bedtime is a whole lot wor, I mean, it's. , it's worse than having it four hours before your hydration status. I mean, all of that should be taken into consideration. But I think when people, like I said before, understand the effects, they might rethink and swap out. Some of, you know, instead of alcohol, do a tea. I mean, we. Humans like rituals. I mean, we think of our rhythmicity that the rhythm of our lives. We like schedules. We talk about bedtime routines for children. They're great for adults too. And I find adults transition better from wake to sleep when they have a nice bedtime routine, a nice relaxing, repetitive, calming routine. And if it has in the past, Involved in alcoholic beverage. You know, swap it out. Find something that you find relaxing, find your favorite tea, but make it sort of a ritual. Make it that me time, that bedtime routine is a perfect. Time of day for a busy person to have that me time that we all need that you can really calm, you know, just folk, just calm down, relax, and have a pleasantry and and if, if you see the difference I have found when I work with people that have learned to swap out the, the night cap. And then they re, they get a new point of reference. It may take a few days, it may take a few weeks, but when they get that new feeling back of. Alert, refreshed. Good attitude. You're in a better mood when you're well rested. I mean, it's amazing how people, you know, they feel better. They think better, they're more optimistic. They're, they're nicer to their partners. They're nicer to their children. They're nicer to their coworkers. They like their jobs more. Do you know there have been studies we're less ethical when we're sleep. There've been studies that people show less ethical behavior. They've show more aggressive behavior. There's more bullying going on when people are sleep deprived. I mean, think of all these things and how they affect every aspect of our, our being. I mean, it's just amaz amazing how pervasive it is and how it really forms us and, and really sort of, you know, gives us just a different lease on life when we're well rest. So it, it's something to think about. Deb: Yeah. Yeah. You've given us a lot to think about and definitely like, okay. We know it's important. Can I ask you some random sleep questions? Terry: Fire away like, Deb: yes. Okay. What do you think about taking melatonin supplements? This seems to be a big thing lately. Terry: Yeah. Well, I always, you know, of course I've gotta do, do that thing. Well, you gotta talk to your healthcare provider about any supplements, but here's my. Philosophy, look at what we're doing. Our body is so miraculous and it does so many wonderful things when we let it. Melatonin will kick in in the evening, in, in the dark when it should to help us fall asleep and stay asleep. It's a, it's a remarkable thing. But what we do we've got the electronics going up until bedtime. We've got the light that will interfere. We've got bright lights in the house or then we're getting ready for bed. We go into the brightly lit bathroom, which suppresses melatonin, or we get up in the middle of the night to use the restroom. We check our phones, then we start checking our email again, melatonin suppression. If we can get a media curfew going on and, and in, you know, do that at night and allow our bodies to do what it should be doing. You might not have to do supplementation. Of course, there are things with jet lag and other instances where supplementation can certainly help. And a little, I know, does go a long way. But again, if. Doing, you know, practicing good sleep hygiene, which is just another word for great sleep habits, you know, and just doing some of the things that are conducive to sleep that we tend to have gotten away from the melatonin should kick in and it should work naturally. Naturally. Deb: So when you talk about good sleep hygiene, you had mentioned the dark room. Mm-hmm. Limited light. So light that sounds like that could be any light from your phone or your mm-hmm. bathroom light or is that right? Yeah. Doesn't matter where it's coming from. No. Terry: And even super, super small, like little pieces of electronics that have a little battery charger light and things like that can affect you. I mean, it's, it's interesting the sort of before and after, if you go in your bedroom and say, we call it doing a light audit and really look at all sources of light in the dark room. I mean, you'd be surprised just coming through the bottom of the blinds and the electronic things that are, even when they're turned off. Look at those sources and try to eliminate as many as possible. And I will say back in the day when I first got into this field of sleep medicine, I, I was in clinical research initially, but I spent a, a week at a sleep clinic in Houston, Texas. And they were telling me how important dark the dark bedroom was and I think it was in the hotel room. I went back and I was, when, when I first started trying this sleep mask, it just made such a difference to how well rested I felt when I woke up. You know, even after you hear it a couple times, you finally get around and doing it and you're like, Ugh, okay, I'll try it. I think we're almost you. It's, it's so easy. How can it be that effective? It's so easy. I need a pill, don't I? You know, I, but really we don't sometimes, but just that really dark room I found wearing a sleep mask was wonderful. I can't travel without them, but when I first got the, I hung the blackout shades. World of difference. I mean, it was n night and day It was, it was a , no pun intended. It was a world of difference. So these little steps can actually make pretty significant difference if you try them. Hmm. So yeah, that's one of them. That's, that's definitely one of them that I am, am pretty adamant about. The Deb: sleep mask is a good idea. So that's enough to block out the light. Terry: I mean, it depends. Some, some hotel rooms. I mean, it kind of depends, but I definitely think dark and, and I know with kids it's hard, you know, they. A lot, a lot of kids have the fear of the dark. We struggle with that. And if you have a nightlight or, and I've talked to adults with the same fears Amber, amber nightlights are better than sort of the bright they're different wavelengths of the light. Do a amber nightlight if one's needed, and just gradually keep it away from the head of the bed if at a possible, and then, but just slowly sort. , get it farther and farther away from the bed and, and get it out of the room if you can ultimately, but stick with the amber color. And, and you'll see. I mean, I again, that, that feeling in the morning is, is good. When you have that dark room, what do you Deb: think? So is it still important to wake up at the same time or go to bed at the same time or what, what's the research there? Terry: Both. Consistency is really crucial. Okay. And, and you know, there's, I like these things. I like to do 'em with kids when I, you know, getting kids to buy into the whole sleep thing and bedtime thing is a tall order, but it is with a lot of adults too. But there's something online. There are a couple different ones called bedtime calculators. So you can go by age groups. The American Academy of Sleep Medicine and the National Sleep Foundation have bed. The requirements by age of how much sleep you should be getting every night. So you go and put your age in and it'll give you sort of a wake time. You know, they'll say, what time do you need to wake up? And it'll give you bedtimes and wake times set permit, sufficient sleep. And those are wonderful to go by. You know, if you need to be, say, up at seven to be at work on time, it'll give you what a good bedtime is based on your. and that's, and it's wonderful to keep that consistent. Now, here's where it gets tricky. A lot of people during the week under sleep, And they don't get that seven to nine hours in hopes. And some of them do say, well, Terry, I try to make up for it on the weekends. And I'm not saying don't do that, but I'm saying don't undersleep during the week and here's why. There's some conflicting research out there, but we're not sure. I mean, there's a lot of, like I said, there's a lot of damage that's done when we don't get enough sleep. I mean, on the cellular level as I. All kinds of things going on in our bodies and brains when we don't get sleep, we're not sure it can be undone even in a short amount of time. Say if you undersleep during the week and try to make up for it on the weekend, we don't know if all that unders sleeping during the week damage can be un undone. We're just not sure it, it, it, that can happen. So I'm really nag people about consist. With getting the full seven hours every night of the week and getting a bed and wait time that accommodate that and sticking to that as much as possible. That's not to say if you do acquire or accrue a sleep dead. If you go into a time where you aren't getting enough sleep, say you've got a 5:30 AM flight you're traveling for business, what, what have you take a. Go to bed earlier that night, you know make up for it. I, I really do like sleep trackers. Some people say it makes 'em too anxious about sleep. And of course if that's the case, don't use them. You can keep a sleep diary, but really track your sleep. We track our calories, we track our steps. I think it's imperative that we track our sleep as well. A as a. A health habit. We should be aware of how much sleep we're getting, how we're sleeping, and if we're accruing debt, let's make it up as soon as possible. You mentioned Deb: naps. I love naps. Mm-hmm. , I, I was just talking to my husband or I was like, I'm not gonna get it to take a nap today. And I'm feeling kind of upset about it. Yeah. That I was feeling guilty about naps. So what, yeah. What is your take on naps or what should we know about napping? Terry: Naps. Naps are great things. You know, I mean, we've had coffee breaks at work. We've had smoking breaks for people. I mean, the, I, I love, I have been at many companies and, and corporations talking about having nap areas. I think they're wonderful. The only thing we have to think about the consideration is sleep inertia. And that's the grogginess after a long nap, say after a 30 minute. and, and it's worse when you're sleep deprived actually. But sleep inertia can leave you feeling pretty groggy. And some people have a hard time sort of popping back, say, into a work setting or after waking up from a longer nap. But if you take a nap, even really short naps have been shown to be effective and helping get over that sleepy feeling, they can be, you know, really increase your alertness and. Performance and you know, save the day. I mean, real life happens and I can preach the seven to nine hours protected at all costs until I'm blue in the face. But real life happens. We've got crying babies, we've got dogs barking next door. I mean, we've got things that happen and that's the perfect scenario to me. I mean, if you're, why have a day that's, From a, a night of a tea with a teething baby. I mean, a nap is a wonderful remedy for that. I believe there are things called coffee naps. I don't know if you've heard of those. Caffeine Takes a minute to k. Couple minutes to kick in, but we've heard, like if you've got. It's a certain sort of scenario that this would be helpful, but drinking a cup of coffee, taking a short nap and waking up, you have sort of a synergistic combination of the benefits of both to get you through the day. That's something I just caution naps and caffeine late in the day so as not to interfere with falling to. sleep at, at your normal time. So I think I'm, I'm off for naps. Yep. Count me in. Do Deb: they help you do they go towards your sleep debt or are they kind of their own little Terry: recovery? No, they can, they can help, help rectify a sleep debt for sure. Mm-hmm. . . Deb: Okay. And you talked about coffee and caffeine. My favorite What do we need? What do we need to know about caffeine and sleep? Terry: Well, if you need, you know, I tell people, well, people tell me it's, it's interesting. I wanna write a book about just everything people have told me about sleep. Cuz it's so, I mean, some of the stories are so crazy, but I've had people say, you. I drink a cup of coffee after dinner and then in the next sentence they say, I'm just having so many problems falling asleep and staying asleep. What could it be? Well, probably the coffee after dinner. And really, and then here's where we, okay. Backing up. People don't have much insight into their own performance when they're sleep deprived. It's, it's weird cuz it affects your prefrontal cortex. I'll talk to people about being sleep deprived and they're saying, oh, I'm not sleep deprived cuz I don't feel sleepy. That's what they equate it with and that's the only context they can sort of gauge. Sleep deprivation is feeling sleepy. Well, people can get actually sort of get accustomed to feeling. Sleepy. So they don't really feel it, but that doesn't mean they're accustomed to sleep deprivation or they haven't learned to power through it. They've just lost their point of reference. It's still doing damage to their mind and bodies. It's still just doing all the bad stuff I've talked about. They're just not feeling sleepy, so they don't think they're sleep deprived, but. These people will say, I'm not sleep deprived, but they're drinking coffee all day long to stay alert. That's a sign, that's a sign. They're sleep deprived. I have people that are just irritable. I had a patient once we, we treated her very successfully for sleep apnea and she was given C P A P and I remember when she came in for a follow up appointment, her husband said to me, thank you for giving me my wife. And I mean years. I mean, he was just telling me about yelling at him, yelling at the kids, this level of irritability. He didn't, at no point did anyone in that family make a connection that it had to do with her, her horrendous sleep apnea until she fell asleep behind the. . See, you know, and it can start off subtle, but these behavioral, you know, issues and how they treat people and behave and, and short tempered and frustrated and changing. Do jobs frequently, not liking their job. I mean, think of all of these things. Who stops and says, well, maybe this has to do with my sleep. Very few people do. So back to caffeine. You know, if you need it all day long to get through the day, you're not getting enough sleep or you have an untreated sleep disorder. So, so look at caffeine intake. I have to have caffeine. Just to, to make my coffee in the morning. It's a, it's a quick, quick trip to the coffee maker. I do very little because I can't until that coffee comes out, but I'm just a slow starter. But you know, I have that two cups and it stops. Nothing, nothing after 10:00 AM so I can fall asleep and cuz it stays in your system for, for quite a while. So, you know, some are more sensitive to it than others. Like, I have to have it, but I cut it off. And some people get it in the, you know, soda intake. It's still awfully high in people that I see, even though we've had some good new information about the not so great effects of, of the sugar and the caffeine in it. So we have to look at that. And back to alcohol, we. every age group, teenagers and adults are much more sub, you know, vulnerable to substance abuse with, because of sleep deprivation. So, you know, is it the chicken or the egg? When they're sleep deprived, they take more risks and, and higher propensity of substance abuse, which can come in the form of drugs and alcohol. Mm-hmm. and they more anxiety, more depression it's a, the obesity problem linked, linked to sleep deprivation and, and that's been a problem in all age. . Deb: Yeah. I mean, so important. You had talked about sleep apnea. Mm-hmm. Can you kind of explain that and, and it feels like more and more people are getting diagnosed with it and enjoying their C P A P machines more. I remember Amy Poller brought her C Pap P machine on like one of her sets and was just like, So glad I have this. Yes. You know, that's amazing. And we kind of think of it as, I mean, it was so good that she did that cuz she's Yeah. A younger, smaller woman. We kind of have, yes, these preconceptions about it, but what do we need to know about sleep apnea? Terry: Yeah. And, and, and obviously we'll talk about the tie in with the alcohol. And that, how that. Really contributes to sleep disordered breathing and affects how we breathe when we sleep. But sleep apnea is, is. Probably more common than we think. Typically, it's more prevalent in men. It's more prevalent in obese, heavier set men. But the problem is, you know, of course obesity occurs when we don't get enough sleep. We don't get enough sleep when we have an undiagnosed untreated sleep disorder, like sleep apnea. So that all happens. And then the older we get. These muscles? Well, first of all, a adipose tissue tends to accrue in the neck region, and that's what will affect our breathing when we sleep. Typically male dominant thing, but in after menopause. We'll see the prevalence in women increases because of just the laxity that occurs in these muscles. So we see more of it in women after menopause, and they don't necessarily, it's not necessarily a body type thing. We can see some very thin, tiny women that have it too. All of that plays a part, but we have to. Take snoring very seriously. We have to take daytime sleepiness very seriously. When you, if you have a bed partner that gasps, chokes, has trouble sleeping, like, you know, making those noises, get them screened, I mean, they're, they're at home tests that can screen for it. Talk to your primary care healthcare provider, whoever you see because we can't ignore that sleep apnea. And the, and the resulting subsequent sleep deprivation, again, is very dangerous and can lead to some very dangerous health conditions, as well as accidents, injuries on-the-job. Injuries. And again, the drowsy driving. We have to be real careful. We could go into micro sleeps when we're duly tired. I mean, we, we don't have as much control over sleep and sleepiness as we tend to think. We really don't. I mean, we think. Let's take an instance of, of driving. I know everyone has felt tired that's listening to this. Everyone's felt tired when they're driving, and we think if we turn the radio on loud enough, drink something, you know, roll down the window, we'll stay awake and and be safe. That's not true. What will happen at some point is a microsleep will occur and that's when, and I've had people tell me about these. They don't, they'll just be at, they'll see a highway sign and they don't even know how they got. They have literally gone asleep and you really don't have control over it. So it's definitely out of our control. That's why we spend a lot of time screening truck drivers. Mm-hmm. For sleep apnea train conductors, anyone in transportation is, is. Often screened regularly for it because it's so dangerous and it's, it's a pretty common thing, but I would take it seriously. And of course, alcohol just makes it worse. If you have it, it can lead to, you know, all that breathing the breathing issues that occur from the alcohol and the effect on sleep ties, right. Deb: Oh yeah. So tell me what is going on there when you met, because a lot of people say, I only snore if I've been drinking or, so what's going on with the alcohol and snoring and breathing and sleeping? Terry: Just the, the muscles all relax people, you know, and you tend to see those people lying on their backs, you know, mouth open and, and they're just, I mean, that's just how it, how it does. And it just, y you know, if you have sleep apnea and have that sort of potentiating it and increasing the severity, that's pretty worrisome. And what happens during. Periods your oxygen, you're, you're having these oxygen desaturations and these are very, very hard on your body and your heart and you know, it'll lead your body will to go into that fight or flight sort of mode and wake you up. You'll get this sudden start and wake up. And this is just very, on your system. I mean, very hard and, and obviously completely disrupting your sleep and, and just not good for any part of your mind or body. So again, that's something to, to pay close attention to. Not, not a good thing. Deb: Hmm. Well, I feel like we've talked about a lot. What do you think we haven't touched on yet when it comes to alcohol and your. Terry: You know, I just think, I think that people have to, I don't, I almost think that people, if they sort of change the way they look at sleep, they're gonna change. They're going to change the habits surrounding sleep. I think they'll be more protective of their sleep. They'll have more respect for sleep. Sleep is a biological necessity. It is, and I talk to people. No one would brag about how little water they drink. You know, let's think about being thirsty as sort of something similar to being sleepy. We don't brag about how little water we drink when we're thirsty. We don't think it's cool not to, you know, I've learned not to drink water. I've learned not to need it. I've learned to power through thirst. I mean, we'd look at that very questionably and. That's not how you do it, but we need to look at sleep in a similar context and say, this is what I need, this is what I need to be healthy. I mean physically and mentally. This is what I need to be a good parent. This is what I need to be a good partner. This is what I need to. A good member of the community. This is what I need to be a good, productive member of society. This is what I need to achieve my dreams. This is what I need to have to in order to be the person to help other people to do my job, to to be my best. So if I could say one thing, I would just implore that people change the way they think about sleep and, and the need for it, and, Flip the script on it and say, you know, I'm gonna put this first. I'm gonna schedule this and see how much better my life is. I always, I ask people to give it 30 days because a lot of people have accrued huge sleep debts takes a long time. You don't have to pay off sleep debt hour for hour, but you do need to pay it off. We'll get more sl, deeper sleep and worse in sleep debt. But I'd say take 30 days, bake sleep a priority, and if you don't have a brand new. Outlook. If you don't have a completely different way you wake up and face the day, I'll be surpris. Well said. Deb: Well, I like to tell people to take 30 days from alcohol and see how they feel. And one of the biggest things they notice is, oh my God, I'm sleeping so much better. Yeah. Now it can take some time to get to that. It can be hard to readjust, but then mm-hmm. , you know, we all wanna feel better. Right. Just that, that's ultimately, like you said, we wanna be more productive, we wanna feel better, have more energy, just have more joy in our lives, and we don't realize that. Yeah, that's related to. Terry: I know it makes us happy. We talk about what, what happiness and, and joy and love and all of these wonderful things that, that just, how can we get there? They're not things we buy, they're not, I mean, it's so basic, but we can wake up feeling so much better than we are, and then that just changes everything. It, it really does change everything. And I say it's it. So important, but make sufficient sleep a personal, a family, a classroom, and workplace value. Deb: Value. Very good. Mm-hmm. , we talk about living by your values, . Yeah. That's great. Well, thank you so much for taking time to come on the show and talk about sleep. I hope that this gives y'all a lot to think about. And just recognizing how important it is and how just removing alcohol can help with your sleep. And then looking into these other. Tools that Terry's talked to us about, and I'll put the link to the Better Sleep Council in my notes. Mm-hmm. , is there anything else or anywhere else someone could find you or find information about sleep that you would recommend? Terry: Sure. I'm on Twitter at power of. and I'm on LinkedIn and I try to post new research on a regular basis, but the Better Sleep Council is a great resource and they've always got some wonderful sleep strategies, sleep tips, things you can do to make it happen. That Deb: sounds great. Perfect. Well, thank you so much. You've convinced me like I gotta fit in a nap. I'm gonna fit in a nap today, Terry . That Terry: sounds like a good plan. . Deb: All right, well, have a great Terry: day. You too, Deb. This is great meeting you. Thank you so much for having you too. Bye. Take care.