Sober Jam Session with Dylan Haas

Pod Dylan Haas 2 Deb: Welcome back to the Alcohol Tipping Point Podcast. I am your host, Deb Masner. I'm a registered nurse. I'm a health coach, and I'm an alcohol-free badass. Oh my God. And I got you sticker too. Today on the show is Dylan Hos. He is also an alcohol free badass . I'm sober. Okay. Sober , Dylan: but that whatever you wanna call yourself does sustain alcohol freedom, the freedom from the alcohol. Deb: Yes. So I, I'm so excited to have you on this show, Dylan. It's been a long, It has been a long time coming. Dylan: Coming, Okay. Yeah. Oh, so you've been anticipating this for a while? Deb: Years for real. Yes. Describe that. What, what, what are you talking about? So I have to give you some back or background for people listening. So I know Dylan and how I know Dylan, which seems Dylan: crazy. It is not what you would expect. Dylan Deb: from the Y M C A and teaching Body Jam. Yes. Gotcha. Which is my jam, which is dance class. This is a, Can you believe you are a dance class teacher? Dylan: Can I believe it? Yes, it does. Does it seem in Congress with every other aspect of my personality also? Deb: Yes. Okay. It was so fun. It was so fun. So that was, I think I was pregnant with Alice, so, Okay. Like 13, 14 years Dylan: ago. Yeah, it was, Yes. I trained like 14 years ago, so, Yeah. It must have been. Yeah. And I quit doing it just about eight years ago, so Yeah. Deb: Yeah. Yeah. It, it was so fun. It was so fun. So it's so fun. Dylan and his, uh, wife at the time, Uhhuh both went to the Y. Um, and I share this also just because I think it's a good example. We don't really know what's going on in other people's. Oh, Jesus. for sure. So to me, I saw you having a great time. Dancing, I, to me is true. I thought, Oh, here's this couple, and they have fun together. And they have three adorable kids. Yes. Yes. We, Dylan: we do did, I don't know how you put it. Yeah. So, Wait, wait. So you were pregnant with, I'm sorry, what did, what's your first name? I Deb: was a student with Alice, who was my youngest doctor. Your youngest daughter. Dylan: Okay. So what year was she born? Deb: She was born in 2009. Dylan: Okay. Okay. So yes, that would've been, So she was born in 2009. Mm-hmm. . Okay. So that would've been an interesting time for me to be a jam instructor, let's say it that way, Deb: which I found out later on. Like all of a sudden we're not a jam. Okay. Describe that experience for you. Well, I, I, I think wanna hear more about Dylan, but I know, but this is what's gonna happen. So for me, I. Like I said, had looked up to you guys and I didn't really know you well. Sure. And so I just had all these preconceived Dylan: and she was a, she was a real presence, let's say at the, Deb: in the camera. Yes. Um, she was someone I also looked up to as like someone who I thought, Oh, this is someone who's really killing it at motherhood. She's unique. She's amazing. Um, and I just didn't know what was going on. Yeah, of course. Uh, so I remember your, your wife at the time saying to me, I was like, Where's Dylan? I've been missing Dylan. And she said, Dylan is finding Dylan. Oh my God. And that's all I Dylan: knew. Really. That's actually polite. I'm surprised that it Deb: was that polite. Fast forward a couple years, um, after you all divorced, um, and hearing some more rumors about you and your situation. Sure. Um, and then, you know, tragically when your ex-wife took her own life and just, I, I still remember going to the, I'm finding out about that. Yeah. And how, I just thought, I thought she had it all together. I thought you, I thought I just had this picture in my head and it was gut wrenching, um, to hear and piece together stories. I, because I never really got the whole story. Cuz again, it's just people you kind of know and you see and you don't get the whole story. And so then fast forward a few more years again. Okay. Also, I've been dealing at the same time with my drinking problem and my drinking issues. Okay. And hiding it. Um, and so then finding you on your podcast, coming out your Fun and sobriety podcast. Yes. Yes. So this was the local podcast you had done and you had all Boise people Dylan: on? Uh, there was a couple people. Yeah. It wasn't intentionally that way, but I was somewhat lazy about, uh, the pool of people that I solicited to come on. Mainly people around town. Yeah. Yeah. People I know people I can run into. I had couple of people from out of state. Yeah. And it's not technically over, it's just on hiatus. Oh, good. I hope you bring it back. I, I wanna bring it back. I, Oh good. I'm just, it, I'm stretched thin right now. Deb: Okay. So, Okay. So then I was able to kind of continue my di obsession , Oh, knock it off . Because now I could piece together some of the story. Well, Dylan: at least one of those I go through. I think I go through some pretty good detail. You do? Deb: Okay. You do, you share your story, Um, which we can share today too. Dylan: Uh, I don't know that I'd go in into any of the Body Jam stuff in that podcast. So this, that never mentioned, Deb: Yes. This is another no version of Body Jam. Dylan: Um, it doesn't seem Okay. Those podcasts. Well, to me it does. Of Deb: course. No, not what I know now. Well, um, That you were so high functioning and teaching a very coordinated class, , Dylan: right? Oh, yes. Were you drinking that whole time? Okay. So yes. I mean, I was drinking, when I trained, I trained to become a body, demonstrate I will use this as our inroad. Okay. Okay. Uh, I was drinking heavily, regularly, secretly. Yeah. When I trained, I trained in spring of 2008. Spring of 2008. Yes. Got my certification and I had a class that I was running while I was still drinking. So Yeah. Or it's, I don't know, it's all kind of a muck. But my ex, she and I, we split summer of 2008. That's roughly the way I can keep all that in, in, in track. Um, Yes, I was high functioning until that moment when we split. Yeah, basically. Um, I drank in secret, secret years. Um, always had a less than functional relationship with alcohol from the beginning. First time I ever had a drink or whatever got drunk more or less. The first time I had a real drink, I blacked out and I was a blackout drinker all through my teens and in my young early twenties. Got together with that person and she was someone who I wanted to impress and whose, whose opinion of me mattered. And I wanted to look good in her eyes. So I used her as an excuse to become a better man. And I put it in my head. It was also resentful and not really paying attention to what I was doing with myself. Um, and so I white knuckled drinking right after my first kid was born. 2000 early. Yeah, early 2000. Well, the kid was born in early 2000. I started white knuckling at, around the middle of 2000, let's say. Cause I was still drinking heavily. I was in graduate school and didn't have a lot of social people, social network that people I was in grad school with, but I wasn't friends with them. I had my exs family who were great, but you know, they were family not friends. And so I just drank, I drank all the time on, on the sly. Um, well, I should be more accurate. We drank, but I would drink a bunch, but just keep it a secret how much I was drinking. And so I quit drinking. When the kid was about six months old because my ex was like, Make a choice cuz you're not gonna be like this. Cuz she, she was working and I was in graduate school so I would watch the kid in the mornings and then go to do my, my research stuff at school during the afternoons and into the evening. And then we, we'd just kind of co-parent, or not co-parent, you know, teen parent. Mm-hmm. . And one night she popped in the shower and during the time for her timeframe for her of however long it takes to take a shower, I went from being a functional father to someone who was sloppy drunk, you know, in her eyes, ready to drop the kid. I wasn't gonna drop the kid, but not gonna argue with somebody cuz I was drunk as fuck. And you know, I had to come clean that I was drinking, like, yeah, I'd had a couple of beers, but I'd also had like a quarter bottle of gin on top of it. So, yeah, I quit drinking then for about three and a half years of white knuckling, which is just to say I didn't do anything. I just didn't drink, didn't just acted like it wasn't a big deal. And then right around when, soon after our second child was born, a few years later, I just decided to drink again. So that was about 2004. From 2004, 2008. I just drank on the sly in a few months of starting in 2004, I'd say by 2005, it was like March of 2004. By the beginning of 2005, I was drinking to borderline blackout every single day and keeping it a secret. Deb: So everyone thought you were sober? Dylan: Yeah. A tee toler, for sure. Wow. So. And that, you know, that just speaks to my connection with people. Mm-hmm. , I had a corporate job, so I had corporate friends at work. Um, I didn't work, I didn't drink on the job. That started in 2008, but prior to that I was, whatever it was after work kind of stuff, couple of drinks, um, maybe I'm exaggerating every night getting blackout drunk, but it certainly started to get there towards the end. But I was certainly going from little tipsy to one or two drunks on the weekend to getting pretty drunk most nights to the point where my third kid was born in 2005, uh, fall of 2005. I realized during the week I took off to be home with the kid and with my family, that that was the only week I hadn't drank and gotten drunk for several years at that point. And I also realized that I wasn't gonna not do it anymore, That as soon as I went back to work, as soon as the week was up, I was gonna start. Cause I was missing it. Yeah, Body Jam time was, you know, we stopped having kids. We both started to work out all the time, get in shape, start being sexy, feeling that, feeling, our oats kind of stuff. And with that came just this like free for all for me. I'm not really sure what, what was the incentive to do Body Jam? I think, I mean, she and I were doing the class together and I don't know, I think she, you know, I, it's easy to paint a picture of her now as being uncaring and, and what have you, because it did blow up in our faces. But she cared about me. Mm-hmm. and she knew that I would find something good there. And I mean, I think she liked the idea of her husband being up there doing, Sort of like, I think she was also a little jealous. It was this weird dichotomy that she was into the idea that I was super good at this and up there at the center of attention and also wanted to put me down to make sure nobody was actually after me. I can't build a story for her, but I dug it and yeah, I mean, I learned the choreography. I, I would, I was into it. I wasn't very good at it. I mean, I, I had to work super hard and I would, I would drink and I don't know. Did you ever drink before the class? No, Deb: never. That would be terrible. I did a lot of, um, classes hungover. Oh Dylan: sure. Well, me Deb: too. That's part of it. I would drink. That's why I'm like, so like, Oh my God, I can't believe I can't, Well, I think I can dance when I, Dylan: I wasn't, I wasn't hammered. Right. Like I would just have a buzz on It was Deb: almost probably you were in maintaining Sure. Your be norm normality versus Oh, for sure. Dylan: Yeah. And then, you know, so whatever that was in. Early 2008, the people came and trained all of us that became JAM instructors at that time. And then by that summer, um, I'm trying to frame this all around Jam cuz that's how you started . So this summer, I think by the summer, you know, we trained and then you had to do all this certification stuff, which means getting approval from the, the, the higher ups of the Les Mills program, whatever. Um, so by the summertime I was co-teaching on a regular basis with other teachers who were good at it. I was, you know, it was the first thing I'd ever done as an instructor and that's like truly the most difficult class to teach. Yeah. Cause there's so much choreography involved compared to all the other ones. So looking back, it was pretty heuristic of me to think that I could do it, but I'm gonna do it. And in the middle of all that she and I broke. And I used the breakup as an excuse to come out of the closet drinking about drinking. And that's why I say it really fell off the rails after we separated. Separated like the last week of July of 2008. Um, yeah. And uh, so I just started drinking really hard at that point because I no longer had to hide it. I no longer had to have this, I had an excuse for why I could be now celebrated for drinking again, air quotes again. And, you know, no one's gonna blame me for being a little off the rails cuz I, I'm heartbroken and, you know, I'm going through so much and I'm experiencing so much. And, um, I, I don't re I mean, I was, I remember trying to make, I think I had a Sunday afternoon jam class at that point, or maybe late morning. Mm-hmm. . Oh yeah. I was, I was well too drunk to be doing that, but, I remember having this feeling of like, it's so funny that nobody's stopping me and so I would just go do it and I, I, uh, it was all about me and how great I was. Right. I remember like just having this sense of being the center of attention and wanting that, even though I was trying to tell myself that's not what I wanted and jam was significant for me, that was a significant thing cuz it was all about feeding my ego and feeding this like how fucking great I am. Attitude. And I think I taught all through that cuz by October, that was like the beginning of August, end of July when we separated and by October, October 11th was laid off from work and it. Under the hospice of just a general layoff, but I had corrective actions against me and I was drunk as fuck at work all the time. So it was a convenient excuse to walk me out the door. And so then from that point until January of 2009, I struggled to not drink, but knew I couldn't stop drinking. And I kept teaching jam and it was like this one little window of like, see I'm a normal person. Um, you want all this, is this what you're looking for? Like the history? Yeah. Well it's Deb: interesting, like I, I think it's interesting you talk about your ego and stuff and I was like, gosh, I guess I kind of fed into that cuz I was just like the Dylan: whole room. So cool. The whole room full of people. Right. Deb: Just like, what a cool guy. And he's such a good dancer. And he's so funny. Yes, dude, he's got a nice smile. Yeah. Like I could see how you, maybe you would feed into that, but I also could see how it would be a bright spot for you Dylan: too. It's a like a double edged sword kind of thing. Right. And that's part of why I say it was significant for me because I got sober. I had a, um, I had a seizure trying to stop drinking on January 4th, 2009. Um, cuz my body, I mean I had, yeah, by the time I got fired I was already drinking for maintenance. Like, I, I would wake up shaking and would have to drink to get rid of the shakes. And then that also was convenient enough to make me forget that I'd was drinking to get rid of the shakes. So in my head I was like, Ah, I'm all set. I'm right as rain, I'm drinking cuz I want to, even though first thing in the morning, it's like, no, you're not gonna make it. So that morning I decided I'd have one drink and then not for the rest of my life. And by that evening I had a, a seizure and I went into a treatment center. And when I came out, I got back on board with Jam. I got back just kind of just doing my thing. I was like, I see it now as having just reset my attitude, right? I mean, I dried out, got rid of the liquor, was in a place for 21 days, so I couldn't have anything. And when I came out I was just kind of back to being myself. And I, I wonder if that's, that's probably when you, you had that conversation with her where you're like, Where's Dylan? And she's like, Well, Dylan's finding himself. Right? Cause it was a kind of a mixed bag for her. Like I'm sure she knew, I mean, she knew I needed help, but I'm sure she also wasn't super happy that I was. Selfishly getting help, for lack of a better way to put it, right? Yeah. Like I think sober is a very selfish thing because you, I, you can't do it for someone else, can only do it for yourself, and you can't do any aspect of it with an outward direction. Connect it to it. It has to all be the person inside of you. And I didn't have that sense then I was doing it because I knew I needed to do it and I wanted to reset and make sure people could see that I was back and I'm okay. And I got my jam class back and, or maybe it never went anyway. Who knows? I mean, and I stayed sober for about 90 days. Then I had a drink one night, uh, dancing and got home and. Decided, Well, you know, we have a glass of whiskey and a start over sober thing here in the morning. Big glass of Mark. Watched Terminator two on VHS at my parents' house cuz I was living at my parents' house as a well adjusted 37 year old man with three children his want to do. And um, in the morning I started over, just drank the rest of that bottle and skipped out on the family stuff that I had planned for that afternoon cuz it was Easter and just made some excuse to my ex and the kids. We weren't exes yet, but we were all intents and purposes and just drank and drank and wound up with all three of the kids in the car with me. And I took them to. Swimming lessons at the Y that Monday night. This was Saturday night that I drank and all day Sunday. And then Monday, I remember passing out in that you, you've taken your kids for swimming lessons at the Y with that, sitting over by the little kitty section where it's so fucking hot. Yeah. And, and I was just like, Whoa. And I remember like, I remember fading back in and realizing we'd been sitting there for who knows how long, and I'm sure, I'm sure that like lifeguards and shit are like, What the fuck is this guy? Like, just passed out in a chair sitting here, jumped up and ran into those gross bathrooms right there by the kid pool there and just vomited everywhere. And then came out and grabbed my kids and then we just took off. And then I wound up being faced the wrong way up ninth Street, right over there by the Y, trying to find my way to Berger King and woke up with the police tapping on the window and. So I wound up in jail with dui, obviously, uh, three counts of child endangerment and, um, panicked. Ran away. I hid for a couple weeks at my girlfriend's house. I had a girlfriend. She was out of town. Just I knew my ex didn't know where to find her house. I knew my friends didn't really know where she lived. I knew her. They just didn't know her house. Um, so I just all the way turned my phone off and just drank. Well, she returned and she was like, Well, it's good to see you, but you're not living here. And, um, went to a second treatment center. So two, two treatment centers within three months. Last time I drank 22nd 2009. Wow. Middle of it. I still had my jam. I still had body jam releases coming and I think I put them on a hot pause while I went to that second treatment center. I remember still like practicing a little bit when I was in the first treatment center. I was really into it and I was just like focusing on jam in a way that was distracting me from having to look at any of the other stuff that you do in a treatment center. Have you been to a treatment center? No, I have not. But you're aware of like what goes on in them? I mean, you're an rn I assume at some point there's substance use, uh, education, so, yeah. I mean it's a lot of treatment center. I went to the 21 day program was like, I dunno that it, there was one person. Staff who was a recovering alcoholic and I like, could get a vibe off of him that he understood what was going on. And the rest of 'em were like some 24 year old woman who's like trying to explain to his family systems and I'm get outta here. Like, I mean whatever. So I was just, you know, I think at one point they even like, let me teach a Body Jam class in cuz we'd have like exercises on or whatever, like free time on Saturdays. And the second center I went into, I, I, I did everything differently including that. Like, I, I remember like having the music on my iPod and like sort of doing the routines cuz I, I just, there was something about the movement that gave me, felt good do it, but I wasn't, I was doing it on my own. Like, I like doing it a handful of times in my room and like my buddy. Kid who I was buddies with in the 28 day program, this one, he like popped in and like peeked in the window and was like laughing at me like, ah, I saw you in there dancing. Um, when I got out from that program, I had a few months of doing nothing but 12 step program, right? Like that, that was my, that was my, to me it was the only way I could see myself moving forward. I had gone to some 12 step stuff as part of the, tried some outpatient stuff before I went in, before I had my seizure. The program, both programs were based around 12 steps, so I was familiar with it and I went door to door. I got released from the second center, the Walker Center, straight from there to a meeting. Just tried to commit myself to doing the meeting stuff and somewhere along the line I realized that I wanted to still. And I remember thinking like, this has to be different. It can't be about me, It has to be about jam and this is gonna be the Jam podcast, I guess cuz I did, I, I changed my approach and I, I, I found the joy and the dance. I found the joy of being there and sharing the experience rather than trying to make the experience about, It's just a mindset, right? I, I'm sure from the outside, other than I, my abilities improved dramatically when my shifted my focus like that. And it's probably also cause I was actually sober, so who knows? But it just shifted everything, right? Like I felt like the classes themselves were more joyful. People came and were more engaged in it. And it was, it was truly about that. I mean, I. A dead man. I would appreciate that there was a room full of women that I, I appreciate attention from a room full of women, women, woman, one woman in the form of several women. But from a humility standpoint and from keeping it real standpoint, I was trying to make it about the experience, right? Everyone's there to exercise, even if part of them's like, eh, it doesn't hurt that it's this guy up there, but they're all there up there for that Right? Mean you came to jam for a long time. It was, it was about just fun, right? Like, doing that class is fun, right? Go to jam. It's, Do you? Okay. Yeah. It is fun. I, I, I haven't been in like a year, I, I, I, after she passed and I go into all that, but the, I eventually, I, I let it go. Um, for not great reasons. I kind of regret, I do wish that I was still doing it sometimes and sometimes I'm like, You're good. You move on with your life. Cause it is fun. But I'm 50. It, it feels silly to be up there teaching it at 50 even if, even if, Cuz I have gone in the last few years to, when I go to Axiom now and I've enjoyed it and sometimes they bring older ones and I'm like, Oh God, I fucking know this. Woo. Throwing my arms around. And I do have that like return of like, Oh God, that, because it's all of, it's a, it's a body memory of, I would learn that choreography to my core. So as soon as the music kicks in, my body's just like, Oh, there it is. And so yeah, I'm like, Oh man, I could do this. Step aside and like you're also 50, just let it be for the young people, it's fine. No, it's for everyone. Well, doing it is fine, but teaching it, teaching it, being up there, like learning it, Having removed myself for a few years and going back and enjoying the classes, I'm acutely aware of, there's some silliness to it that I'm just like, I, I don't need to be committing all my time to this cuz I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna do it half ass. Right. I mean, my classes were spot on and whether the people in the class understood it or not, I was spot on and if I made an error, it was, you know, I corrected it. I think there was one other instructor there that was of a similar mindset of like, it has to be fucking perfect or else it ain't right. Okay. And so that was part of. I can't commit my time and energy to this, to the extent that I want to and do the rest of my life the way I want to. So I had to let it go. Yeah. Just what I convinced myself. It was partly because a woman to go into the, Okay, Deb: another story for another time. Sure. Why not? Um, Well, thank you for sharing that. Sure. And congratulations. Dylan: Congratulations on not not doing jam anymore. Good work. Thank you for that. Cause you look really silly doing Deb: it. No, no, no. It was fun. But I I, I was just kind of reflecting on, you know, how you were saying like, why didn't anybody notice? How am I getting away with this? Right. Sure. Well, no one's paying attention to us. It's, Yeah. And I had a couple experiences at the Y one. I'll just share two of since it's a whole y discussion. But one was, I had gone in to do one of those body fat measurement test. Oh, okay. Right. Like in the water? No, they just did the caliper. Okay. I just was like, okay. I went down and was in this room with, with one of the trainers and I told him, basically the thing is I drink too much. I have a drinking problem. I kind of poured my heart up and I cried to the Dylan: sky with a caliper. Uhhuh. At Deb: the what? Dylan: Uhhuh. Right? Uhhuh. Yeah. Sounds bad. Deb: But then I thought, oh, they're going like, they're gonna catch me on the way out. They're gonna gimme some pamphlets, they're going to gimme some brochures, pamphlets, I dunno, Dylan. But I just thought, okay, well the pamphlets would've done Dylan: it too. So it's on them. Deb: But for me, I was a big deal to like come out and say that. Of course. And uh, and, and nothing happened. No one ever said anything. And I would awkwardly see this guy all the time. Right. Oh my God. And I'm sure he was Dylan: just like, um, sure. He didn't think twice about it. Deb: I didn't know. I know, right. Um. Yeah. Like people don't notice. No. And, and just talking about like here you can be going and doing something good for your health, showing up and uh, this is my other wise story. I remember going to the West Y right. Hungover. Fuck. Right. And usually I would go workout and that would kind of be my punishment, my self explanation. Okay. Sure. And I Dylan: You wouldn't take a shot before you did that? Never. Deb: Oh my God. I mean, good thing, right? Well, I could, I was so sick. Oh, okay. So this time I went into the, one of the handicap bathrooms. Mm-hmm. . I locked the door, I laid on the bathroom floor. Yeah. It's nice and cool. The whole class period. Well, my daughter was in, he was in Child Watch. Sure. And I just laid there and I was just like, I can't do this. Like, why do I keep doing this to myself? Right. But I was still functioning. Sure. I didn't hit a Dylan: few hours later. You were fine Deb: that night. I remember drinking that night and thinking, Do you? Um, but I just, it's just, I, I, what I wanted to share with you also was about your podcast, which was seeing and hearing from real people, not just characters in movies or that you read about in books. Like knowing that there are real people out here. For me, you having your local guests, like, Oh, there's people in Boise that are doing this. There's a lot of people. There's a lot of people. And so for me, that really helped me feel not so alone. Yeah. And then also I was telling you like this interview was in the making because I would listen to your podcast and I would tell myself, I'm gonna, I'm gonna get sober and I'm gonna come on Dylan's podcast and I'm gonna share my story. Oh, so I, it, it was just so weird to go into my daughter's, um, counseling office and there was a flyer and you were on it. Oh, Dylan: that's right. That's right, that's right. You told me that's how you found this or whatever, how you Deb: reached out to, and you were leading a support Dylan: group. Well, I was, I was advertising to lead a support group. The support group. Man's not enough people. Oh yeah. It is what it is. Well, Deb: tell me about like, because you, your career initially was, Hmm. , you have your PhD, right? You're a smart dude, right? Dylan: Well, I have a PhD and so you can, you can draw any conclusions you want between those two's. Engineering what was, Deb: uh, material science. Okay. Material Dylan: science. Yeah. I have a, Yeah. Okay. So yes, I have a degree in physics and material science. Deb: Okay. And then you went to rehab, You came Dylan: out I still work as an engineer. I, I Working where you are. Yeah. I was working, I was in graduate school for material science engineering. Got a job at Micron. That's what brought I was to Boise. Okay. That was the corporate job that I was talking about. Yeah. And then when I got sober, after about a year of sobriety, I. Little over a year. I was hired back at, not Micron, but basically Micron. Okay. And I've been doing that job ever since. And just before the pandemic happened, just coincidentally, I decided I want to eventually switch careers. Yeah. So I started graduate school again to become a counselor. Tell me about that. . Well, and that's why the podcast, my podcast is on hold. So I was, the podcast was an attempt to be of service, right? Like, I, I wanted to share and share my story, share people's stories to the broader audience of, you know, the endless of podcasts. So who knows how many people find it. But it was just a way that I could be a little bit more, um, in my eyes of service to people, because I don't. I don't know if you're familiar with the program with the 12 step program, but there's an aspect of it is being there for other people. I mean, that's the whole point of it honestly. Thing is built on is drunk people helping drunk people, and my lifestyle being full work kids and other things that I was doing. I'm not, I'm not as solid a member of this little secret community as I'd like to be. So I was doing the podcast as a way to be of more service and I'm not as solid a member of my corporate community as I should be or could be because I am a more emotional person on a career path that doesn't fill me spiritually, which I've known forever, which is part of why I started drinking when I got the job at Micron. Started going heavily on the slide. Do the timeline there. You'll also see that lines up a lot with. Recognizing I was stuck in a corporate job that I didn't want and was too afraid to figure out how to get out of, So I did a little soul searching as to what I could possibly do as a career change that is nominally sustainable and something I've fuels feeds my soul, right? I have a better way to put it. I wanna help people. I, I can be there for people. I can help people without having to work at it. Um, job that I do, I can do my job and I can do it well, but I have to work at it. I have to concentrate on this is what I have to do today. Being there to help people sort through their shit, figure out what's going on with them. Help them try and balance in their lives. I can just do that, do that. That's the embodiment of who I so excited to go to school for. It reached out to someone who I know who had an ex-girlfriend who had done the same thing and I was like, Hey, do you think I'm thinking of doing this? What do you think? And she was like, Yeah, you gotta fucking do that. The whole time I was in there, I was thinking of you doing this, which was flattering and it was exactly what I needed. A little nudge to give me insecure about it until she gave me that feedback. And you know, it made it clear like this was the smart, this was the proper. And that's also a core element of my sobriety is being present and connected to the universe. It's the aspect of spirituality hold in me is if I'm here and I'm grounded in this moment, Prepared for the next moment and the next right thing is just gonna be evident and I'm into it without even having to think about it. That's what this felt like and it's continued to feel that way. It's been, um, I've got another semester after this semester and then I'll have an additional letters behind my name, see where we go from there. I'm hoping to transition over. Okay, good. Guys that we're recording and this is gonna go out to the broad end. Yes. But that might work now as I'm doing this and I, I just started that way cuz I didn't want to have to hassle with it. Yeah. And I just figured at some point I would, you know, there'd be a complication and I'd have to be like, Well I can't make it to this meeting at seven at night because I've got something happening and here's what it is. But the pandemic kicked in and so it's been a lot more of. From home setting your own hours in terms of, you know, they expect me to be there normal business hours, but there's also a soft expectation of just get your responsibilities done. And so I'm taking advantage of the flexibility to around school schedule. Um, yeah, I don't know. We'll see what happens. Neat. Deb: I, I kept wanting to say like, so, so like counseling and helping people is your jam? Dylan: Yes. Yes it is. Oh my, Deb: Oh, Jesus. Wait, Okay. This cheesy joke Okay. Leads me into, Okay. Your other side gig of being a comedian. Dylan: Oh my god. What? I don't, I don't do comedy well. Okay. Okay. So like I've intimated the desire to get out of this corporate job has been there for years. Right. It was why I was, part of why I was drinking. It was, Part of the frustration and anxiety that I was trying to hide from. And when I got sober, and I, you know, like I said, it was about a year after I was sober that I was rehired into this position. Or at least I, um, I ran into somebody who had a job there and was like, You should come apply, blah, blah, blah. And when I got the job, I told myself, you know, cause I was acutely aware of how dangerous it was for me in terms of my sobriety, considering how much of my drinking that led up to the crash was driven by this like, overwhelming feeling of being stuck. And I didn't want to have that happen to me again. But I needed to have the job, right? Like I needed the job . I don't think I needed to rationalize three kids in a very angry ex-wife. I needed a good job. Yeah. So I told myself five years, You got five years. This was 2010, five years. Gotta figure out a way to get, get your shit together and figure out something else to do. In five years. Middle of that, I got caught up in another relationship, distracted myself in a way that, um, I started turning my attention towards comedy. Like, I'm not stupid enough to think I'm gonna become a professional comedian within a couple of years as a 40 year old person, but I was and am good at putting together deucing comedy. So yes, I was doing comedy because that's, you know, it was, I was, I've always been interested in doing comedy, so let's, let's start there. Right. Okay. And so in my late thirties, I decided to give it a go. Not any good at it. Had fun at it. I'd have a few times where I was pretty good at it, but for the most part, I can't get outta my own head, Can't get outta my own way. Never found the comfort on the stage that I need to be successful at it. Anyone needs. What I'm good at producing, I'm good at seeing when other people are good at doing that and putting together solid production shows and blah, blah, blah. So I was planning, prior to deciding to become a counselor, I was planning to take over, try to take over the comedy scene here in town, which is grandiose. I, I wanted to buy the club, right? So I had a, I had a good relationship with a guy who owned the club and he wanted to sell it to me when he was ready to quit. And, um, I dunno, I look at it as like grabbing for the brass ring. Like I just missed it, . So the timing of it worked out. Um, I, I put together a few comedy festivals. I still am involved in TREE for It, the comedy portion of Tree for, so I still do, um, the planning, like the production value. Like I can, you know, I'm a good analytical thinker. I can put together solid shows. I can also. Emotionally intelligent. I can connect with artists and I know how to serve. Like as a festival, I was running my own festivals. What I focused on was making sure people, audiences, but artists served that they had and make sure that they felt welcome. And I'm sure that they had, My intent was to give them the best experience I could possibly give them so that their experience was positive and fed and part of it was self-serving so that they would talk about how great my festival was and send their friends my way, but also I just wanted them to have a good time. I wanted to provide an experience that everyone just walked away from with as positive as possible. So yeah, when it was clear that that wasn't really gonna work, that I wasn't gonna make any money, and I was certainly not gonna be able to take over the club, what else could I do? That's part of what led and like, well, Joy was serving. Those people feel welcome and right. So yeah, the comedy thing, I mean, I'm very particular, if you'll note, there's nowhere that I'm claiming I'm a comedian. That's just true. Yeah. I mean, I That's true. And, and that's partly because I don't want to, You're people who out there who put their fucking soul into it. And I'm not gonna sully that by saying, Well, I'm also a comedian. Cuz every now and then I'll go to an open mic. That's not the same thing. Deb: Mm. Interesting. Yeah. Okay. Well, identity is important. Dylan: Sure. Yeah, I guess so. I mean, identity is important. I, I hem on that because I also feel that a lot of people who out there call themselves comedians. They're like, Settle down. . Oh, , okay, you're talking to a mic now and then you're good. There's, hopefully they're not listening who they should. They, they, I don't. Part of what's annoying about comedy as an art form is it, it's an art, it's heart. And like any art, you can't define what makes it good. And you can't define how someone's gonna be good at it. And it's why someone else might not be. And your energy is what your energy is. And it tends to attract people who wanna do shit. And they want to feel like, Well, I got up on stage for 12 minutes and spoken to a microphone, so I did shit for my day. And that, that's a job. And uh, people who do that, they know who they are. and most people, you know, most people probably do that at some point in their career as it is, phone it in. I, I don't even think it's phoning it in, it's more just lack of drive for most things in life. And comedy is an opportunity to like, I mean, I would sense that some musicians are a similar way where it's you just kinda like, Yeah, I got a job. I go. Music for a handful of bucks that people throw in that bucket. Technically that's a job I, Yeah, that's interesting. And I hope I'm saying that in a way that doesn't sound like I'm being derogatory cuz it is more Well Deb: you've around it. Yeah. It's lost the, the, like for me it sounds more glamorous. Sure. It's Dylan: not glamorous at all. It's drunk. It's a lot of drunk people. Well, that's an Deb: interesting choice that you were almost gonna buy a Dylan: club. Well, I wouldn't do that if I didn't feel comfortable. Yeah. In the environment. Right. And and with your own sobriety. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the first time , the first time I tried comedy was, uh, on the anniversary of the day I got fired and it was like October. It was so funny. I didn't, I never made a joke about that, but I just was, uh, October 11th, 2011. So, um, which is to say that one's the first time I like. Timidly found my way to an open mic and was like, Oh, oh this is funny stuff. Um, but yeah, and that's part of why I'm couldn't be any good at it or just couldn't commit to it to be any good at it is cuz it does take a lot of, I mean, it requires a lot of just sitting around an open mic is how you work out your stuff. That's where you get to actually practice the art that is sitting around at a club or a bar waiting for your chance to go up and tell stupid things into a microphone for three to five minutes. And the rest of the time you're just sitting there and. I've never been built in a way that enabled me to just sit around doing fuck off for hours at a stretch ever, but let alone after I'm sober and an adult. So that was a real complication. And I recognized very early in that if I was able to just slam back a few drinks, I'd be fucking hilarious. Or at least I'd think I was and I'd certainly be looser and get outta my own way. Yeah. But, you know, Deb: whatever. Okay. But now this career path for you is in the form of counseling and helping other people. At least that's the hope. Well, let me ask you this, you know, with, with all your experience in years and now education, like what, what would you say to someone who is looking to change their dream Dylan: team? To be honest, gotta be honest with yourself, um, is more than likely they've been very successful at lying to themselves. Blind to everyone around them for sure. But it starts inside, you know, and know how bad it is you. And if you want to change, you're gonna have to start there. You're gonna have to start with being honest. So like have moments of honesty, like when you're laying on the floor at the Y and you're just like, What the fuck is this? It's more than just that. It's just gotta be willing to look at ugly, ugly truth about yourself and be okay, or no, that's not have faith that you're gonna be okay. That just because you acknowledge the shit that you've done and the shit that you're feeling doesn't make you shit. It's just the reality of your life and it doesn't have to be that way. And what would Deb: you say to people, you know here you have so many years of being, so what would you say to people to help them maintain their sobriety? Longevity. Dylan: Honest? Yes. You have to be honest. Okay. No one's gonna do it for you. So if you want to be sober, if you wanna be sober and not drink, then look at that face, that own that. Hold it. Keep right there in front of you all the time. If it's so significant that it is getting in the way of your own peace, own wellbeing, balance in life, then it's real. If that's for real, don't down. And even if you've managed to not drink and feel like you're doing better in life for 10 days, a hundred days a year or two, stay honest about that. If that was for real, it was for real. If sobriety is your your goal, true, like abstinence, keep that at the forefront. And if it's not, don't let go of that memory though. Cause I mean, we all have different lives, likelihood of returning to that shit position where you wind up feeling like everything is lost and hopeless and empty. If you start drinking again, likelihood is high. So you gotta be honest about that. Stay honest about that with yourself, with your wife, not with your kids, not with your pastor, with yourself. The only person that matters. This is back to my comment about it being a selfish thing. The only person that matters is you. I'm the only person who's gonna have this experience, The only person who's gonna walk through this life I'm having. Same with you. Want to have a different life, want to have a different experience. Only person who can make that happen is you the person who can fuck it ups you. The answer's the same. You gotta be honest. Yeah. Deb: Gosh. Well, thank you for your honor, , and coming today and coming at my house. Dylan: Y'all are we. Oh my gosh. We did that whole thing. Deb: Yeah. Yeah. So, um, I'm, I'm just so excited for you. When I saw that you were going to school to be a counselor, I also was like, Oh, that's fit, That's it's given for I appreciate Dylan: that feel. Again, back to my like, it feels like. Thing like nobody, nobody I've run into has been like side eye, a little cock their head of like, really . Well, Deb: it's almost the opposite. Like you're an engineer. Yeah, Dylan: exactly. Exactly. Is But you're always Deb: defining expectations. No, you are. You know, don't you think, Uh, sure. . Yeah. That's Dylan: so cool. . I'm, I'm pausing there cuz I was, as I just said, that nobody has looked at me sideways with that. I, I haven't. A couple people who may look at me sideways that alter will, You've alter the dog. Don't the dog. No, I just mean people who exes, people who, There's a handful of people. Whatever reason that I've done that they've done, They don't like me, . Oh, Deb: well we can't all be like, we're not all for, we're not all Lemon, cello, LaCroix, . Uh, not everyone likes LaCroix. Dylan: Yeah, well those people are stupid cuz LaCroix is awesome. uh, is there, We didn't even go with any of these. What, what do we got? Um, no, I guess so. Deb: I think we're good. Okay. I really just wanted to have time to, So what are, why are you doing this is meaningful to me. Very meaningful. Why am I doing alcohol Tipping point? Yeah. And the podcast. Yeah. The same, like, I felt so, I felt so alone and so stuck that I didn't want anyone. They feel that way. And I want, you know, for me, the, I didn't hit a, a rock bottom. Okay. You know, I hit the bottom of the y Oh my god. Bathroom. But, you know, like I was Wonder Soccer, I didn't, you know, I didn't go the route of aa mm-hmm. and I didn't do rehab. I was always kind of like that gray area drinker. Sure. Um, And so I, I wanted to just be able to have a show also to present different viewpoints. Yeah. And have people from AA or Smart Recovery or people who didn't do it at all, or they did it on their own or whatever. Yeah. Yeah. So just for me, I really wanna help people. Dylan: I appreciate that. I'm laughing because that was my thought starting mine and then I realized after like 50 episodes, like you only had people from your AA programs, Deb: Oh, on yours. Yeah. Cuz Dylan: I'm just lazy. Deb: But for me that was, um, helpful because I never did aa, It was helpful for me to hear people talk. Got it. Sure. And have their different experiences with it. Of course, I didn't, You know, I also thought it was interesting that the group you were leading, that we have talked about, Oh, Dylan: the flyer that I wanted to lead. Let's Deb: say your intention was a harm reduction group. Dylan: Yeah. And not, well a use reduction. Not, not necessarily a harmfully. Use reduction. Yeah, Yeah, yeah. Well, Deb: sure. Right. I mean, the ultimate goal of harm reduction or use reduction is zero. It could be any extreme. Right? Dylan: That's my assumption. And part of if, I mean, I just wanted to be there to provide a support group for people who are looking to curb their use. Yes. Looking to whatever, change their relationship. Right. Whatever it looks like. But contained in that is gonna be honesty. You want to curb your use and you can't do anything but get fucking drunk. Look at that. Yeah. Deb: I mean that for me was, you know, if I could have moderated, I would, would've moderated. And that's right. Dylan: That's what every single person who's sitting in an AA room will admit if they're honest. Deb: Yeah. And I think, you know, you asked also why, like I kind of present this different viewpoint. I just think anyone who wants to change their drinking should be like, applauded a hundred Dylan: percent. And that, that gets lost in the, in the rooms. I mean, yeah. A good, a good, a good program, a good, good meeting. Every meeting's different, but a good one like that. But you know, it's like any cult, let's say people get bought into the idea that this is the only way it says in the program itself. This is not the only way, This is just our, But people kind of like, like anybody who reads the Bible too much, they'll gloss over the parts. They don't want to want. Yeah, they want to evangelize. Evangelize. Deb: Yeah. It, it's so interesting to me, the AA and the AA backlash. Um, Dylan: AA backlash. That was also part of it. Like to me, it's weird when I hear people like shitting on aa. Just relax, you know? You don't want to do it, don't do it. Nobody's telling you you gotta do it. Yeah. But there is a weird, because I suppose just because it's been around for so long, it's this air quotes institution that now requires taking down a few notches or something in people's eyes. I don't know if Deb: it's anger, you know, I I, or blaming someone else or blaming something Dylan: else. Certainly what it feels like to me when I hear anybody talk about not working for them. Yeah. Yeah. It sounds like a lot Deb: of projection. Well, I mean, for me, where it doesn't resonate is I, I couldn't get to a place where I could call myself an alcoholic. That was too hard. I needed an in between, and that's, you know what I mean? That's important. So I do, I, I needed a, a drinking anonymous program, not alcoholics Anonymous like they need to take, I promise. Lots of people Dylan: came in with that exact same mindset and found their way. Deb: People I've talked to, the more I've heard that. Right, Sure. And so, Dylan: but that's a good point. And that is part of why I was framing the group that I was doing in the way that I was. Cuz I don't, I didn't, I didn't want to be pushing abstinence. I didn't want to be. Yeah. There's like it or not, there's a feeling of judgment connected to that word, which is better or worse. It just is what it is. Calling yourself an alcoholic is a leveling agent. , let's put it that way. What do you mean? A leveling? Recognizing that you're an alcoholic. Oh. Puts you at a certain level in your head of like, Yeah, I'm an alcoholic. Deb: Well it, it's, and I actually don't use that word. I What handed you? Oh yeah, I know. Alcohol free badass. I know. Does that seem like denial to you? Dylan: No. It just feels like that's the way you want to present it, I guess, Deb: because I wanna present it in a way that is empowering and positive. Sure. And the term alcoholic is so like, loaded with shady. Dylan: That's what I'm saying. It's loaded with a bunch of stuff that yeah, it doesn need to be, but Deb: for some people, right, for some people, that's what helps them. Well, to call themselves an addict or an alcoholic, that's what helps them. Dylan: Maybe it, that whole aspect of it, and I do have a podcast on this. Uh, it's in, it's being humble and it's recognizing this room full of people, Phenomenal strangers, anywhere, anywhere in the country, anywhere in the world. Honestly, walk into that room from all walks of life. It's not all the loaded aspects of that word might mean to each person individually and to their visual cultures. That aside, it's just the leveling. Dylan, I'm an alcoholic. That's all. Deb: I think it, um, tells people like, I get it. I get Dylan: you. Yeah, that's what I mean. We get each other. I feel those people. That's part of why I still go. Cause I feel a connection with people almost instantly. As soon as we're all sitting there and we're there for one reason, general, like rolled out here is gonna be out here hour when we're done right now, people here doing this and here are 11 people that I would fucking talk to step out of their way at the grocery store and notice them. Otherwise listen to 'em, feel them, give them a hug if they need, offer myself to them. And it's a beautiful spiritual experience. Yeah. Can Deb: be. Yeah. Yeah. Dylan: Ideally. And when I'm walking around, someone offers me a drink, they ask. I say, no, I'm an alcoholic uhhuh and I know what it means to me. And whatever it means to them, it gets 'em to quit asking me if I want a drink. Deb: Yeah. Well I think it's important, you know, if you're listening to just find like your word and your identity and like that. Yeah, yeah. Whatever. Dylan: It doesn't matter if you don't like that word. It doesn't matter if you want to call yourself whatever you wanna call yourself, it matters that you're gonna live your life in a way that feels feeling joyful. And in the end of the, you know, when, when this all little thing ends and you're just laying there looking back, whatever fucking that as positive and experiences, you could have to be. Deb: Well, thank you. Thank you for your time. Dylan: I appreciate you reaching out. I mean, it, it reminds me that that podcast still is out there touching people a little bit. Yeah, that's why I can't do it. I'm in school. It's just too much. And the pandemic was becoming the same podcast every time cuz it was just, just sitting around doing nothing. there's only so much, like, this is tough. I know it's tough for a lot of people, but you know, it's the same tough as it was last week, so, yeah. I don't wanna phone it in. Deb: So I, uh, you know, which episodes I really liked were the ones where you and your friend reviewed movie talked about movies. Dylan: I like those too. I, I still do movie podcasts. I just haven't, I need to return to the Sober movie podcast. That was fun. I really enjoyed those two. Yeah. Those are secretly my favorite. Even though those were a distraction. Oh, I Deb: love them. That's like, Oh, what was this movie? I'll Dylan: go get And I remember Maybe we should start doing those again. I, I, You guys should. Yeah. Okay. Deb: I will. Okay. . Well, if you have your podcast back, we'd love to be on it. Absolutely. Of, of course. We're still gonna make that happen. Oh yeah. Absolutely. Yay. Okay. Dylan: The recording. I hope it all works and the audio works. I think Deb: it will be found. Thank you for, um, right there. Hi It'll be great.