What You Need to Know About Sugar and Alcohol Cravings with Angela Magill

Welcome back to the Alcohol Tipping Point Podcast. I am your host, Deb Masner. I am a registered nurse, health coach and alcohol free badass AFBA . Today on the show I have Angela McGill. She is a registered holistic nutritionist and she specializes in cognitive and mental health. And we are gonna talk all about sugar and cravings and how they might relate to drinking and when you're quitting drinking. So it's gonna be one of the more helpful episodes to help give you tools. So welcome to the show, Angela. Thanks Deb for having me. Can you give a little bit more of like an intro about yourself? Sure. Angela: So like you mentioned, I'm a holistic nutritionist and I specialize in helping busy professionals with stress, anxiety, and depression through nutrition. So finding natural ways to help with those mental and cognitive illnesses. Obviously with that comes when you're dealing with stress, anxiety, and depression when you're helping someone. Substance abuse can come into that as well, such as like alcohol or pills. Mainly dealing with busy professionals. It's, it's usually alcohol is usually included in the mix with stress and anxiety. Okay. Very Deb: cool. And then you reached out to me specifically to talk about sugar cravings, but also just to kind of share your experience with drinking and how that's changed in your Angela: life. Yeah, my, I mean, like everyone, your. relationship with drinking definitely has to reach a breaking point where you wanna change and provide people that message of healing and help from your learned experience. Mine was not just an experience with alcohol. I had bulimia for 18 years and the alcohol sort of crept. Over the years, it wasn't necessarily something I started with. The alcohol probably crept in to help me deal with the stress and anxiety I was having of hiding this shameful eating disorder. So like I know most people talk about they start drinking in high school and that's when they get their first experience with alcohol. I was like that perfect, you know, straight A student, never got grounded, never did anything wrong. Like I was that person in high go high school did not touch substances, did not touch alcohol. It wasn't really until I entered university that I actually had my first experience with alcohol. So I was actually of legal age. And you know, in university I only really drank on weekends or, you know, at parties. It wa it wasn't even really a social thing for me. It was more like specifically weekend, like weekend parties. And it wasn't really until my late twenties or early thirties when I was in the workplace that alcohol really became more of a. Something I would gravitate towards at the end of the day. And it just like, I kept gravitating towards it over and over and over again to the point where it was like, wow, I'm consuming, you know, a liter and a half of wine every single night. . But on top of that, I was also dealing with my bulimia. So like I would have my bulimic episodes and then I would reach for the alcohol, and the two by the end were so entangled that I couldn't separate them. I had to deal with them. Both. I remember being in when I decided that I wanted to get help with with my bulimia being in the therapist's office, and she was like, you have to give up both. And I was like, no, no, no. Like I was still in denial about the alcohol thing. Like, I was like, no, no, no. I just wanna get rid of the bulimia. I don't wanna give up the alcohol. And it took me, I don't know, six months to a year after that to be like, no, I need to give up. Deb: Hmm. Yeah. And how did you go about recovering? Angela: I mean, it was def it's definitely, definitely not linear. I can tell you that. It wasn't like I saw a therapist and, you know, I went to treatment for three months and I was all better. It wasn't anything like that. I tried standard therapy. I tried outpatient programs, and this was mainly for my eating disorder, not the alcohol. And it wasn't until I actually enrolled in nutrition school that all the pieces kind of came together, and I started self-healing myself through food and my nutrition. And then eventually the bulimic episodes started to get less and less, and the reliance on alcohol started to get less and less. So it definitely wasn't like, this day I'm quitting drinking and that's it. It was like I would go three months and I wouldn't have an episode. I would go then six months and I wouldn't have an episode. Now I'm at almost two years, so it's been. Progressive versus like black and white, cut and dry leg. I just cut myself off and I'm good. Deb: Yeah, and thank you for sharing that. I think that a lot of people that struggle with alcohol and and drinking also have some underlying disordered eating. Especially women. It can be really common, you know, that I struggled with. Episodes of bulimia and anorexia and really. Nothing that was like clinically diagnosed, but I guess neither was my drinking. And so just when you're focusing on healing yourself and having other coping mechanisms and taking care of your health, then you find like these unhealthy patterns of eating this unhealthy way that we're drinking just doesn't fit into the new value you have of taking care of your. Angela: Yeah, it really became almost like self-love for me, like the nutrition and giving up alcohol became like a way of like paying homage to myself and really respecting myself and my body and really taking the time to give myself the love that I deserve and everyone deserves to give themselves. Yeah. Deb: Yeah. I've heard people say like giving up drinking, that's the kindest thing you can do for. Angela: It, it really, it really is. I mean myself, I, I obviously overcame the bulimia with the drinking, so it was like, I kind of like tagged out double time. But it was definitely, it was definitely the kindest thing. And because I did a kind thing for myself, like my universe expanded as well, so now I'm able to take all of that lived experience and wrap it up into nutrition in helping people who might not, you know, Ha have success dealing with stress and anxiety through tra through traditional therapy or pharmaceuticals. Right? Those, those options might not work for them. Nutrition might be a, a way to go or different, other holistic pract practices. It's just opening up that those doors just to educate people that, Hey, you've got different options. It's not this or that. Deb: Yeah, yeah. We were talking before we recorded, like, isn't it great that we have so many options? You know, there's so many tools out there to change your drinking or change your, your other habits. So today we wanted to focus on sugar cravings, and so I wanted to ask you why do we get sugar cravings when we quit drinking? Angela: To answer that question, I wanted to talk about some of the similarities between sugar and alcohol's effect on your body. So hopefully that will kind of give you the correlation between why we get the sugar cravings when we give up alcohol. So most alcoholics are hypoglycemic. Right. So sometimes we'll reach for alcohol when our blood sugar is low, and obviously the alcohol will increase our blood sugar. Obviously sugar we know also increases the blood sugar. So you can see that similarity. Alcohol depletes key nutrients in the body such as omega three B one and magnesium sugar has similar effects where it depletes key nutrients. Zinc, magnesium, and b vitamin. Both affect our digestive system, so alcohol and impairs your ability to absorb nutrients in the digestive system, and sugar feeds bad bacteria in our digestive system, which leads to imbalances. So you can see where I'm making the, the correlation between how the two kind of affect the body. Mm-hmm. . But most similarly, and why we leaned on sugar when we quit drinking is probably because sh sugar like alcohol disrupts your natural serotonin and dopamine productions. So we end up reaching for alcohol as a way of self-medicating, right to calm us down. People will also reach for junk food, refined carbs and sugar when anxious, stress or depressed. This also makes it addictive like alcohol because you're using sugar. To, you know, get that unnatural high, that that increase in serotonin and dopamine. And of course once the sugar wears off, you end up, you know, cranky and irritable. So you end up reaching for it again and again and again. It's sort of that same pattern that you might have had with alcohol, right? People giving up drinking at the end, like if they're used to having their five o'clock wine. In the first 30 days, they might really be missing that, so they'll reach for something that's gonna give them that same kind of hit or calmness, and so that might be sugar. So sugar has the similar effects on the body. So it's just, it just seems natural for us to substitute it for alcohol. In essence, you're basically just replacing one habit with another. Albeit I would put alcohol in the worst category because it causes immediate threat to your health, whereas sugar consumption is more of a slow burn or deterioration of your. Yeah. Deb: It's so interesting because when I, before I quit drinking, I did not have a sweet tooth. Like I was like a chips and dip kind of girl , and I was kind of proud too, like, oh, I don't have a sweet tooth. I could go without cake or ice cream. And then when I quit drinking, woo, that flipped around like then I really. The sweet tooth and you know, my body was on the hunt for dopamine and the quickest hit was sugar. Angela: Didn't you say, when we were talking offline, you said like you attributed sugar to helping you quit drinking. Yes, so Deb: I, if I was to give like my Oscar speech, I would hold up like my three years of alcohol freedom and just say, I'd like to thank sugar for getting me through the first year of quitting drinking, because for me it was, It was such a treat. I, because when I removed alcohol, I didn't wanna feel deprived. Right. I, it's, and, and you can feel deprived, and I mean, your brain is definitely feeling deprived because you're not having that artificial hit of dopamine anymore. And so for me, yeah, I wasn't gonna drink at night, but wow. Now I could have the dessert. I could have the donut. I could have. Ice cream. I could have some candy also, because I was saving calories because I wasn't drinking anymore. And I do tell my people like, I don't demonize sugar. I tell my people like, treat yourself, treat yourself. You know, I'd rather you have a donut than a dui. I'd rather you you know, I don't want you to feel deprived. Now, as you get further and further away from alcohol, your body's not gonna need that dopamine hit as much anymore. And then you can address your sugar cravings. Angela: Yeah, hopefully you're like getting your dopamine hits from more natural things like that help your body create it, like exercise or walking, or your body's just naturally creating it. It's learned to recreate it on its own now that you don't have the alcohol. Deb: Yeah. Yeah. So what are your, what's your advice for alternative ways to manage your cravings besides sugar or even your sugar cravings? Like what, what advice do you have there? Angela: The biggest advice I would have on managing cravings for drinking is getting your sleep under control. I know Deb, you've probably mentioned this in the past, but like alcohol is detrimental to your sleep. It suppresses your melatonin production, so a lot of people who have been relying on alcohol for a long time have very disrupted sleep. And so they're not in those like natural sleep wake cycles. And I know for this resonates with me personally because I started reaching for alcohol to self-medicate as like that was my sleeping pill essentially. Mm-hmm. was to get me to sleep. Not, this was like years ago before I realized like how detrimental it actually is for your sleep. So staying well rested will help with the melatonin production and we'll stop you from relying on alcohol. Thirst. Some people don't realize this, but we reach for things. We have cravings when we're thirsty, and the body doesn't necessarily know the difference between thirst and hunger. And so oftentimes we're thirsty, but we're like, oh, I think I'm hungry, so I'm gonna reach for something else. I love address Deb: the Angela: thirst first. . Yeah. Address the thirst first. Another way that you can manage both the cravings is by stabilizing your blood sugar long term. And that includes integrating in proteins and really good fats in every meal because those will keep you satiated longer, keep you fuller and will keep your blood sugar stable longer. You can also manage sh particularly sugar cravings by introducing naturally sweet foods. So like, have tons of berries and apples and grapes and like sweet potatoes. Adding in spices like cinnamon, nutmeg, and ginger will also help because they enhance the flavor of your food. Cinnamon also has a natural sweetness to it. But also those particular spices that I mentioned, cinnamon, nutmeg, and ginger, help balance your blood sugar le levels, right? So your blood sugar is less likely to dip, wanting you to reach for like actual sugar to bring that. And to manage sugar cravings, you can try replacing it like with things that you have in your life. So if you have a coffee every morning, just look at how much sugar you put in it, and you can start reducing that slowly. I tell people with sugar, it's sort of like, Alcohol. If you go off of it cold Turkey, you will experience symptoms. So it's better to reduce it slowly than to just cut it out. Like I've had people tell me they've gone off sugar, cold Turkey, and they've like experienced sweats, like hot cold flashes. Their moods have been erratic and all over the place. They've had diarrhea. Like it, it's crazy. It almost sounds like they're giving up a. Hmm. Deb: And is that related to like the dopamine and neurotransmitters getting reset? Angela: I would say, yeah. And it's also like it's affecting other parts of your body. So sugar affects your digestive tract. So it also affects like the neurotransmitters. So it just will kind of put you in, in haywire just like alcohol, do you know what I mean? It doesn't just affect one thing in the body. It kind of trips a whole bunch of different things. Deb: So are we more worried about added sugars than natural sugars? I mean, because sugar is in so many things like our, our fruits and even, you know, some vegetables and you know, there is a small amount of sugars. So is it the added sugars that we should be more concerned? . Angela: Yeah, I would, so I know you're gonna ask me this question, but like, should we be demonizing sugar? And the an and the, the bigger question is what you just asked is should we be demonizing what we've done to sugar, like how we've added it to everything, how it. It how it's basically been industrialized. And it, and I'm not just talking about the thing, the obvious things like candy and cookies and cakes, like it's been added to all processed and packaged foods, cereals, granola bars, you know, your salad dressings, tomato sauce, bread, dairy, and non non-dairy products. Sports drink. I mean, I could keep going. Luncheon, meats, pastas, crackers, and chips. It's in everything. And not only is it in everything, but it's also disguised under various names. So you have, like, if you look at your package, it has sugar, but you could have glucose, fructose, sucrose. Dextro maltodextrin, high fructose corn syrup, brown sugar, cane sugar, like it comes under so many names. So we've put it in everything and we've labeled it so that's no longer identifiable. So for instance, if you are having you reach for like a sandwich, you're like, I'm hungry, I'm gonna have lunch, I'd like a sandwich. And you just, you know, bread, pickles, lunch and meat mayo. You think tomato great. This is healthy, but it's filled with refined sugar. because it's been added to all of those things. The World Health Organization actually recommends li limiting sugar intake to less than 10% of your total energy intake for your overall diet. So that equates to about, for a 2000 calorie diet, you'd be looking at 200 calories or 12 tablespoons from. So if I relate that back to the sandwich two serving, so two slices of store bought right bread is 3% of your daily sugar intake. So now you only have 10% left. And that I'm not including the other things that you've added to the sandwich, like the pickles and the mayo and the deli meats. And then of course you have the sandwich. So you wanna reach for the. I Deb: like a sandwich with, with chips and . That's what I would do. But, but I do like the, the salty sweet taste. And I, I do feel like you have to combine it, you know, I'll have something kind of salty or that sandwich and then I will kind of be conditioned to be like, I need to follow this up with something sweet so the cookie could come into play. Angela: Yeah, but the cookie, the cookie may not come into play for you. What am I coming to, to play for other people? So people think when they wanna give up sugar, it's just giving up that that cookie or that candy. But you have to look at what it's in, in its entirety and. . Do I think we should demonize sh all sugar? No, because I think natural sugars are great. You know, fruits, your high, high starch vegetables like sweet potatoes, even rice even natural honey and, and maple syrup. I don't think those things should be demonized. I think it's more looking at what we've done to sugar and how it's like hidden in everyth. Hmm. Deb: Yeah. Okay. So really the added sugar well you had mentioned drinking cravings and tying it into sugar. Now is sugar making your drinking cravings worse? Angela: I, so can make the correlation between, it could be making your drinking worse. So sugar, like alcohol depletes your serotonin and dopamine levels, right? So, short term it sounds great, you're replacing alcohol with sugar. But long term replacing alcohol with sugar keeps, still keeps you dependent on an artificial substance. Regulate your mood, right? So it's, it's kind of a slippery slope, which could go straight back into alcohol. Deb: I see what you're saying. Yeah. So you're saying more like if you're, if you're like, okay, if you've associated alcohol with be your treat at night and then you've replaced that with ice cream , and then you haven't really dealt. What do you really need at night? Like maybe you, instead of needing dopamine out of like sugar or alcohol, maybe you need rest or some self-care time or a bath or a walk. Like you haven't addressed the bigger core needs. Angela: Yeah, exactly. And, and one of the core needs that Is also a nutrient deficiency. So sometimes we rely on alcohol, not simply because, you know, we're genetically predisposition to be alcoholic or because we're trying to deal with a, like we're self-medicating from a mental health, health issue. It could be because of a nutritional deficiency. So for instance, the mineral magnesium. Which is the body's natural relaxing. It actually works like Valium on the body. If you're low in magnesium, you might want to replace that relaxation effect that you're, that you would get naturally from having enough magnesium with alcohol or sugar. However the, the catch 22 with that is alcohol and sugar both deplete your body of magnesium. So thereby, . If your nutritional deficiency, you might be actually relying on the, if you fix that nutritional deficiency, you might be relying on the substance cel less. Deb: Hmm. So what are some of the other ones? So magnesium, would you recommend like taking supplements or, I guess now we're going down this path, like what's the best way to eat for recovery if you are depleted in a lot of these minerals or whatnot. Angela: The best one that I can recommend straight into the gate cuz I am a holistic nutritionist, but I'm not everyone's holistic nutritionist. So like the supplements obviously that I recommend are tailored towards my client's specific needs. So take what I'm saying with sort of a grain of salt and do your own research and talk to your own healthcare provider. But magnesium is one that I would recommend for anyone. Getting off alcohol or sugar because both deplete your magnesium levels. Magnesium is also incredibly depleted in our soil, so it's harder to get from food right now. So that would definitely be one that I would, I would recommend. B vitamins to me are also a great kind of catchall because B vitamins provide not only calmness for the body, but then you've got your B nine s and your b12, which provide. So taking a well-rounded B clump complex would be a highly recommended for. Omega three s would also be another good one because alcohol depletes omega three s. Omega three is, is like magnesium. I know we associate it with heart health, which it does do, but it's also great for cognitive health. It's also great for relaxation and it helps with anti-inflammatory. So omega three s is just a well-rounded supplement. All, all. . Deb: Okay. And those are like, you could go to Walmart today and get some magnesium, vitamin B complex and omega-3. Yeah. If you wanted to supplement. If you wanted Angela: to supplement, I always say food first, cuz supplemental is like they're meant to be in addition to they're supplements, not the be all and end all. Deb: So what kinds of foods would you recommend if you're eating for recovery? Angela: The best thing I can recommend is three to four ounces of protein at every single meal. Protein can be depleted with alcohol consumption, but protein is also vital for rebuilding those neurotransmitters. So protein breaks down into our amino acids, and then those amino acids rebuild and reconfigure themselves into the neurotransmitters. So if you have enough adequate protein, your body is going to build those neurotransmitters naturally. Deb: Are there some proteins that are better than others, or if you're like, vegan, what? What? What would you recommend? Angela: I will always defer to animal proteins first, only because they're complete proteins, meaning they contain all 22 amino acids. That is not saying that you can't get protein from vegetarian sources. So lentils Beans, rice, other grains, nuts and seeds. They all have protein as well. They're just not complete protein. So if you're a vegetarian or a vegan, you wanna combine them together to get a complete protein. So like combining nuts and seeds with rice, the Mexicans do it really well, like you've got your beans with your rice, like that is a complete protein. Is tofu Deb: a complete protein? Angela: Tofu soy, soy and quinoa are one of the vegetarian sources that are complete protein. Okay. Other ways to eat for your recovery, and I think I mentioned this already, was the omega-3, but you can get that in supplement form or you can get that from fish chia seeds, flax seeds, or walnuts. And the reason omega three s are so important is because if you know how I said protein creates the neurotransmitter, omega-3 actually keeps them safe. A little bit of science. Omega-3 is an M and AO inhibitor, meaning it slows down those m and AO enzymes that destroy neurotransmitters like serotonin and dopamine. So it's almost like a, a protective layer. It kind of protects them in a, in Deb: a little bubble. Yeah, that's what I think of it as like a little lipid bubble , a little Angela: lipid protection bubble for your neuro, for your feel good chemicals. The best ways to eat for recovery. Tons of fruits and vegetables, like so many fruits and vegetables. They all contain so many great minerals and vitamins and like everything your body needs, especially your poor liver, which has been under attack like liver supporting foods are greats. And, and those would be bitter greens and beets. An array, like a rainbow of vegetables and fruits, like any, every color under the sun, anything you can imagine. Other foods that are great to eat for recovery are anything that really helps the digestive system because alcohol inhibits and impairs digestion. So we wanna rebuild back that digestive system. Two types of food groups that are great to add are probiotics. So you're looking at yogurt or kimchi or sauerkraut. There's also prebiotics, which you can add, which come in the form of onions, garlic, asparagus, bananas. So again, those, those fruits and vegetables, I mean, really Deb: can't. Oh, I was gonna say, you really can't go wrong if it's out of the ground. Exactly, and that's, Angela: that's how I was gonna summarize it was like, it's not complicated, just it's whole foods, like foods that are found in, naturally in nature. Foods that you recognize by one name. Mm-hmm. . Deb: Very cool. , what else do you have to say about like people who are giving up drinking and are having more sugar cravings, or what other advice do you have? If you, Angela: honestly, I would lean into the sh like, you wanna give up the alcohol first? So I would say lean into the sugar cravings and don't be hard on yourself if you have those sugar cravings at first. It's, it's totally natural. It's okay. Your body's trying to adjust to this new norm that you're trying to create for it. So, Be compassionate with yourself, and then when you're kind of over that hump and you'll know when you're, you're there, right? Like, I'm not gonna say it's gonna be in 30 days or 60 days or 90 days like it. It all depends on the person, when you feel like you are in a better space. Like, things in your life have started to change. Like, you, you'll not, you know what I mean? Deb, like, you'll notice the natural shifts in your life. Maybe then you might consider reevaluating your relationship with sugar. Deb: Yeah. Yeah. I, I always recommend like, okay, you're just removing alcohol first. Just focus on that because that's gonna make everything else better. And then further down the line, if you want to change some other habits, then you can address that. But for now, like that's all we're doing, that's all we're focusing on. Angela: people, most people trying to take this like all or nothing mentality. Like it has to be perfect and I have to do it all, all at once. But it's not, it's more about progress versus perfection and you know, feeling your way through it. and experiencing it for yourself and then being like, okay, I think I'm ready to do this, this now, like with alcohol. Normally there's, there comes a time where you've decided like, enough's enough, I'm done. I'm out. And it's a decision you've made. It's sort of similar with, with sugar or any other habit. Like you're like, enough's enough, I'm done, I'm out and I'm, and I'm going to work towards making steps to, you know, either cut that out, add things in, make my life a little bit better, or change it, however, you know, feels natural for me. Mm-hmm. , I. , Deb: I might throw this at you, but , I just thought of it. What do you think about artificial sweeteners? Angela: Neurotoxic, uhhuh, , that one word, neurotoxic. And I'm assuming you're talking about like aspartame or sp Splenda, that kind of thing. Well Deb: both cuz there's some plant derived like stevia and then, you know, there's your Diet Coke. Artificial sweeteners. The Angela: artificial sweeteners, I'd be like, throw them in the garbage. They shouldn't even be consumed. They, they, they aren't even fit for, they don't even fit for the garbage. But natural plant derived ones. I'm on the fence about like honey and maple syrup. Absolutely. Like anything that you can find in nature with the stevia or like the monk fruit or things like that. It would, to me it would depend on all about how it's processed. Yeah. Versus like the, I mean, research does show that they don't spike your blood sugar. . So if you were diabetic or hypoglycemic, those would be ones that I would go to first, like the plant derived ones. If you're, if you're like, I really need something. Deb: Yeah, I w I'll just share my thoughts. . Because people thought, no, me, no, I love my diet Coke. And it, and actually that became another sort of treat for me, if you will, because I was like, okay, well I'm not drinking alcohol, so I'm gonna have my Diet Coke. I do. Feel like there is some research and maybe it's funded by the artificial sweetener industry, kind of like alcohol research. But there has been more research showing that artificial sweeteners aren't as bad as we originally thought. They're not good. But not as bad. Now I do work with a lot of, I work in corporate health and wellness as a registered nurse and health coach, and I do work with a lot of People with diabetes or, or weight problems or whatnot. I would rather them be having the artificial sweetener than the sugar. I mean, there you would be amazed at the people who just cut out their Pepsi like having a six pack of Pepsi a day and switch to Diet Pepsi and lose a tremendous amount of weight. Because again, I think you're looking at the pros and cons of both. Not saying that That you have to decide or whatnot, but just, but is it better to be overweight and have diabetes and drink sugar, or is it. Gonna be better long-term to lose some weight, lower your a1c, and have overall better health markers, better lab results. So I do like to just add that in. People can do their own research. , but I, I also, you know, we had talked about like, you're, you really are anti sugar. Not, I mean, for lack of a better word. Like, you're like, okay, sugar is bad and artificial sweeteners are bad, and I'm kind of like trying to find like a middle ground and having people make informed choices about what they put in their body. Angela: Yeah. And I love that because I don't think, like, my one way of thinking is the be all and end all. Like, does that work for me and might it work? Might it work for someone else? Or does having sort of a more moderate intake of sugars and you know, not and artificial sweeteners work for someone else, it's, I think it's all about people taking what they need for their own individual needs and figuring out for the. Each of one of us is like, we're unique in our own specific way. Even, even your children are unique from you. So it's, it's all about individuals finding out. I just like to provide the information and then you do with it what you will. Yeah. Deb: Yeah, and I think that's the great thing. You know, it, it's that there are so many different ways to treat alcohol use. There's different ways to treat diabetes. There's different ways to treat, you know your sugar intake. There's different ways that we can think about it, and we don't have to be black and white and we can change our minds. Like just because you believe one way. Yeah. I mean, thinking about all the years that I believe, like alcohol's great. There's nothing wrong with it. Right? I can change my mind and be like, you know what? Alcohol sucks. Alcohol is, is a poison in a carcinogen and it's not good for our health. And you see science kind of slowly changing their minds about different things. But, but with that, I mean, science isn't black and white either. And I think a lot of people think it is. And just think about like the journey of the egg . How eggs are good. No, eggs are bad. LDL cholesterols. You know, bad, oh, maybe it's not as bad as we thought, or would take any of these topics and you'll have extremes. So it's kind of finding the middle gram. Angela: Yeah, it's all about finding what works for you, and I love that message. Even with, even with sh like sugar artificial sugars, I, I have tons of recipes and stuff that I have altered Tino make. I have brownies that don't have any sugar in them, or banana bread that doesn't have any sugar. So there's ways of, of changing up those standard thing treats or things that we look for that have sugar. to make that, that are palatable, still taste good, but are nutrient dense at the same time. Deb: Yeah, it just made me think of like, things are kind of on a spectrum, like bad or not necessarily bad, but like, good, better, best. Yes. So on that, good, better, or best? Best would be not to have added sugars or artificial sweeten. Right, that would be best. But what are some things you can do that, that might be in the better range? Right? So, so like you said, like maybe, maybe you can cut down your sugar habit by not having added candy or whatever. Or, or maybe for you. . If you're drinking just straight up Coke or Pepsi, maybe it's better for you to go to Diet Coke or Diet Pepsi. And, and then maybe if you're drinking Diet Coke, like me, m my best would be switching out to something, you know, like a, a seltzer or something that doesn't have artificial sweeteners. So it, it does kind of give you some room to, to get to what is best for your. Yeah, and I Angela: mean, switching out the Diet Coke, it doesn't have to be something that tastes plain like seltzer. It could be a kombucha. So, yeah. Yeah, that, that has flavor to it, so at least you're still getting some flavor. Deb: Yeah. Yeah. I think it's good to point that out just for everything that we do. I, I think even when you're changing your drinking, like you don't have to go to aa, you don't have to be completely abstinent. Maybe your goal is to reduce your drinking, and that's okay, but knowing that like what is best for your body and your health is no alcohol, but what's better for you? Is reducing your alcohol and what does that look like? And I mean, we could play around with this. Good. Better, Beth . Angela: We could play around with it with any topic. I think. I mean, we're talking about alcohol or sugar, but we could play around with With anything. Yeah. Deb: Yeah. Yeah. Maybe it's just Angela: even understanding for yourself what your relationship is with sugar or to alcohol, and then, you know, coming to terms with how either of those integrate into your life and how they make you feel as a person or affect you overall. Deb: Yeah, and I think you could do the same thing with sugar that you did with alcohol. So say you are sober and you've been sober for years now or whatever you, you feel solid in your, your alcohol freedom , you can do another experiment like you did when you first quit drinking. You can do it with sugar and be like, okay, I'm gonna do a 30 day no added sugar challenge. And, and just try that. And like you said, like. , are you digesting better or do you have more energy? Are you sleeping better? Are you having less cravings, less headaches? Like, be, be curious about that. Angela: Yeah. And just be compassionate with wherever it, wherever those experiences take you. Deb: Always compassion. Yeah. Love it. Well, thank you Angela for being on the show today and talking about sugar. How can people find. Angela: I, you can find me via my website, which is nutrition with angela.com or on Instagram, which is the same handle at nutrition with Angela. Oh, perfect. Deb: Okay. I'm glad you said that. I will put those links in the show notes and yeah, just wanted to thank you again. And if you're listening, you know, like Angela said, have compassion with yourself. I, because this is about drinking , this whole podcast, just remove the alcohol first and then you can go on and address other other habits you wanna change as. .