Quit Drinking and Gain Meaning with Maroon 5 Founding Member Ryan Dusick

Pod 89 Ryan Dusick Deb: Welcome back to the Alcohol Tipping Point Podcast. I am your host, Deb Masner. I'm a registered nurse, a health coach, and an alcohol-free badass. That's what I say, Ryan . And today on the show I have Ryan Dusick. Ryan is the founding drummer of Maroon five. He is also now an associate marriage and family therapist, and he is the author of a book that's releasing in two days. It will be out by the time y'all listen to this. It's called Harder to Breathe, A Memoir of Making Maroon Five, losing It All and Finding Recovery. So welcome to the show, Ryan. Ryan: Thank you. Thank you so much for having me on. Deb: Yeah, I'm delighted to have you on. I Gotta say I, I didn't know much about Maroon five, so I was glad to have the memoir. And then as I was reading it, I was like, oh, interesting. Cuz you and I have almost the exact same birth. We were both born in September, 1977. And we both, you know, grew up in the nineties with grunge rock and, you know, it sounds like you loved Sound Garden and Pearl Jam and Nirvana. And so I thought that was really cool and I could relate to a lot of that. I think our similarities end there. . good because you went on to be part of. Giant band, maroon five. I went on to become a nurse, and here I am in Boise, Idaho. And you're in, are you in LA now? Ryan: Yeah, I'm born and bred in la. I still live in la, yeah. Oh, Deb: that's great. So for those that aren't familiar with Maroon five, can you kind of share your origin story of the band and how you were a part. Ryan: Sure. Yeah. Well, Adam Levine and I were friends well, I wouldn't say friends when we were little kids. We were acquaintances through family, friends. He's a, he was a couple grades below me, so, you know, when you're 10 years old and, and you're around another kid who's eight, he just seemed like an annoying little brother, I guess, you know. But we, we knew each other and we actually played music together for the first time when I was. 12. When I started playing the drums nothing really came of it. He was just strumming our rhythm guitar and we had a friend who was playing lead. And we, we had a few rehearsals and that was the end of that. But then a few years later we were both at Brentwood High School together and he had made friends with Jesse and Mickey. Who were the other two original members and I was kind of the, I guess, sort of sought after older drummer in school who had been playing in the school pet band for a couple years. And I wanted to start a band with Adam because I. Had had realized that he was a good singer. I didn't realize that when we were kids. And then I went to see his band perform and I realized he had quite a good voice and that was something I wanted to start a band with. He had these other two friends. He wanted me to join their band. I guess long story short, as fate would have it, we ended up. In 1994 starting the band cars, flowers and we, you know, kind of got going in the, in the mid nineties and got our first record deal and put out an album on Warner Brothers in 97, which flopped And then we had to transition and kind of start over and become Maroon five. And that was kind of how it all began. Deb: Yeah. And so then you were with Maroon five when you guys became really big and started touring the world and won the Grammys, and like, what, what was that like for you? Ryan: Well, it was you know, those years I'd say were probably the best of times and the worst of times to to quote Charles Dickens You know, it was, we had worked for a decade to get to where we, we ended up, which was you know, global stardom, . We, we had been a band and gone through every kind of, Evolution as a band and as young men growing up together. So it was really something that we were very bonded, very connected and, and just sort of dreaming big dreams together and working really hard for a decade. And we've put out the album songs about Jane in 2002. We were on the road nonstop for a few years there and we went platinum and had our first, like big number one hit in 2004. So a decade into being a band, we were really sort of reaching the mountaintop. And at the same time, I was starting to have a lot of problems on tour. Physical problems performing, I had joint problems and then nerve problems. In retrospect, I realized that it was also mental health issues going on that was very connected and, and Sort of inextricably linked with the physical issues as we know mind, body, and spirit, you know, are, are all connected. So you know, it was reaching some incredible heights, but then also falling down to some really demoralizing lows for me that kind of ended my time as a musician, as a performing musician in 2000. And led me into a really dark time in terms of depression alcoholism, anxiety and just really grieving the loss of that identity of being in the band. And it took me some years to really hit a bottom and turned a corner from that time in my life. Deb: Yeah. What what struck me a lot in your story was, was this the role of identity? And, you know, a lot of people can't relate to being in a, in a rock band, what that's like, and, and being a musician, and then just physically not being able to perform like you used to and mentally, like you said. But then having this thing that you do be taken away from. And having it not be your choice, you know, like you just got to a point where you could no longer perform. And so I, I think a lot of people lose their identity in other ways too. You know, whether it's changing your job or, or getting fired from a job or, you know, like getting divorced and losing your identity as, as a, a married partner or. Like, just this concept identity is so huge. So what, what was that like for you to be a musician in a rock band and then have that taken away? Ryan: It was devastating. You know, being in the middle of something like that, being wrapped up in, in this. Engine that was our band and working towards something for so long it had become my entire sense of self. Because my social world was wrapped up in it, you know, all of my friends, the band of course, being my, my close friends and, and you know, working partners creatively. So not just friends, really like, you know, spiritual mates. You know, we were creating together, we were pushing each other. We were connecting on another level musically. And then my whole, you know, world was kind of centered around the. And so everything else kind of was on the back burner during those years in my life. And it had become the priority it had become all consuming in terms of my energy and focus. And to have all of that just all of a sudden disappear for me. To have been in the center of that and then to not be, and then on top of that, to be watching them from afar still, you know, enjoying the, the, the largest level of success that you can have in that world. And, and sitting at home sort of twiddling my thumbs and feeling sorry for myself it, it was, it was a huge loss and I look at it as a loss of identity. A loss of self-esteem, self-worth, self-confidence and also just really like a, a, a real grieving process. You know, it was, it was I had to go through the stages of grief almost sort of having denial at first. Like, this is not really happening, or I don't really care, you know rationalizations about how it's not that meaningful or nothing is meaningful. I kind of reached this very nihilistic. Just like, oh, I don't give a crap about anything, you know? And, and, you know, the depression and the, and the, the bargaining and, you know, so many different things that I had to go through over a really, a decade before, before I could find a place of acceptance and closure on that chapter in my life. Deb: Yeah, I like how you use the stages of grief. I, I use those a lot to explain my relationship with alcohol and, and giving up drinking. So, so dealing with your identity and then on top of that, having your, your problem with drinking and drugs too. Like, can you share what your experience was with Ryan: addiction? Yeah, I, you know, alcohol was, is so insidious, you know, it wasn't something that happened overnight. It was a relationship that took a couple decades to reach the point that it did, you know it started, I, it's funny, I was kind of a late bloomer and growing up my parents raised me that alcohol and all drugs were terrible. And, you know that if you're having any more than just a glass of wine or a beer you're a drunk, you know, and, and so I, I was very anti alcohol and all of the kids at my school were smoking pot in high school. I didn't do anything like that. In my twenties, you know, I, I think I did need to loosen up a little bit. I was a little bit uptight, . I was kind of in a very perfectionist You know, performance driven kid, you know, very self-motivated. I was, I was shy and uncomfortable in new social situations. I wanted just my very close friends to myself and I didn't really like making new friends or, or party situations or anything like that. So in my twenties I made it a concerted effort to kind of lighten up a little bit, have a little more fun, and try to be more open to. Opportunities socially. So alcohol became a part of that. It became, as for a lot of young people, just a facilitator of, you know, feeling more comfortable in social settings less self-conscious a little sillier, a little bit more playful you know, more comfortable talking to girls. Like all the stuff that as a young man, It just was a, at that point, really just a a tool for facilitating good times. And that lasted for some years. And I, I, looking back, I think that I can recognize now how some of my thinking at that time, Was probably a little bit alcoholic even before I, it got to a, a place where it was a big problem because it was obsessive, you know, just kind of really thinking about when I'm gonna drink and how much I'm gonna drink and planning it out and can't wait till the weekend and it's gonna be epic. And just all this sort of like ways in which I would, my life was becoming sort of centered around the opportunities to get a good buzz and how I was gonna control it. Where it turned for me was when things started getting really dark for me, when, when I was having pain, physical and emotional pain and feeling really lost, feeling spiritually broken, you know, just really disconnected from the things that gave me joy and gave me a feeling of purpose. I started drinking more and. To avoid those feelings, you know, to escape or to self medicate. And it became almost like an alter ego that I would put on to pretend like I wasn't in this pain or, you know, suffering the degradate degradation that I was going through, what I was. And that's when it ramped up in quantity. In frequency. And the times that I did it would go from this facade of, oh, I'm just partying like a rockstar to really dark and sad episodes. And it, and it got, it got bad. You know, I went through all the different phases that an alcoholic does, and you talk about the stages of grief. I think, I think the stages of grief in terms of giving up alcohol begin before you, long, before you even actually give it up, right? Because you're negotiating with yourself, the bargaining is happening throughout your addiction, right? , it's like, well, maybe, you know, I, if I just get it under control, if I just, you know, switch to, to beer instead of liquor, if. Only drink on the weekends, or I can have a couple after five o'clock, but then I, you know, I can only get drunk on the weekend. You know, just all these silly rationalizations that we give ourselves, that's bargaining, you know, and I went through that for years, you know, and thinking, and feeling this, this illusion that I had control over it. But really it was controlling me more and more over time until it was undeniable that my life was complet. Unmanageable and that this, this baffling and powerful thing had control over me more than I ever had control over Deb: it. Yeah, I, I, when I was reading your book, I was expecting more of the rock and roll drinking debauchery, but what stood out to me was you, you had said That honestly, it wasn't as much with the touring or performing cuz a lot of performers want to be clearheaded and alert and put on a good performance. It seems like the drinking, like you said, really ramped up more after you were out of that environment. Is that true? Did I interpret, interpreted that correctly? Ryan: Yes, absolutely. And, and I wanted to make that distinction with the book, that this was not just another sex, drugs, and rock and roll book. There's been plenty of those. You know, we've seen on, on in the bookstores over the years, and not that those can't be a lot of fun or, or interesting but this is more about mental health and a journey for me. And I felt like I wanted to delve into the nuance of what that journey was more than. Details of, of the partying as a rockstar, that kind of thing. But yes, you're absolutely right that drinking for me when I was performing was really more still the, the kind of college fun thing. It wasn't something that was, I don't remember being wasted, you know, on stage or maybe hungover once or twice. Twice on stage when I, we had had some big event and then, you know, had to perform the next day. But it. Anywhere close to the point that it became later because we were very serious about what we were doing. I, I was actually a little surprised by that, to be honest, because, you know, growing up you hear the stories about the rock and roll lifestyle and I, I was, I started playing drums in the late eighties when it was the, the hair metal era, the glam glam bands. And so looking at Guns and roses and Motley Crew. All of those bands, like that's the image I had of what touring looked like, you know? And by the time we were touring and, and and playing on that stage 2002, three you know, most of the, the artists that were lucky enough to still be performing at that level we're pretty serious about their craft. You know, I'm sure that behind the scenes there's, you never know what's going on, but, but I think that the world had changed. Like people expect their performers to be on point. You know, they don't want them to be messed up the way they did in the seventies and the eighties. And there's so much big money, you know, corporations and things running these, promoting these tours that if. If you had a big blow up or you know, a tour meltdown, you know, you're liable to get sued, . You know, so it wasn't that. I mean, the, the big artists that we toured with were very much professionals, you know, and so it, for me like I said, it was, it was when I lost all of that, when I, when I was not able to maintain that performance and I started feeling really down and really, That the alcohol started becoming more habitual, and it wasn't. I mean, I, it was this facade of the rock and roll lifestyle. I, I was pretending to be just being Debs and having fun, but really what I was doing was suffering more and more internally and trying to escape it. Deb: Yeah, and that just kind of makes me think about, you know, you mentioned about just the machine and the business behind these kinds of industries, kinda all industry really for everyone. And so that made it very hard to. Get help in a way. Right? So you, you couldn't just take a break because you have a tour schedule, right? You can't really miss work when you're like, there's all these people that are relying on you. Ryan: Yeah. And I, I touch on that in the book, hard to Breathe. But I also wrote a an, a article that came out recently in Variety Magazine on this topic. They actually asked me to write an article on this topic. Because it's interesting to see how the world has changed in terms of mental health and performance at this point, or is just starting to change now. When I was performing 20 years ago and, and it was this big, it became this big corporate enterprise Basically we, we were told say yes to everything because you know, if you're lucky enough to have a hit that may never come again. And if you say no, it definitely will never come again. So you have to say, yeah, if, you know, if, if the promoters in in England say you gotta come here for a week, you gotta go there for a week if the promoter's in Japan. So you gotta come here for a week, you gotta go there. Any downtime that we had between 2002 and 2005 just got filled up immediately as more stuff started coming in. So we literally didn't have a break for like three, four years straight. Maybe a few days here and there back home in la, but some of those were the most exhausting days because your. For three days and you have a show where all of your friends and family wanna see you and they want tickets and . So it, it's like there's really no reprieve from, from the, the energy that just keeps going and going on this train that you're on. And being one fifth of a band that is a part of this big enterprise that is our record label, our promotional team our management, you know, there's no way I could say, Hey, can we, can we make sure that we have two weeks off in September? They'd say, oh sure, we'll try to do that. Sure, we'll try to do that. And then it'd be like, oh, we, we have a new single coming out and we need to shoot a video. And then you, the, the, you know, the single's coming out in Brazil, so we gotta go down there for a week. And so it just, it no matter how much I asked it, it, I just gave up at a certain point, cuz it wasn't, it, if something came up, it was gonna fill that spot. And, and honestly, I felt bad asking because it was like, we, we don't know if we'll ever get this opportunity. And we have to make the most of it. But now, you know, I don't know if that's what the case today, it is a different world in terms of the music business, and you do see artists canceling tours, you know, citing their mental health as the reason for it. And you never would've seen that 20 years ago. So, I, I mean, I am hopeful that there is more thoughtfulness at this point in terms of the, the health and sustain. Of young performers in their. Deb: Yeah, did. We are starting to see it more and in sports too. We, you know, Simone Biles and pulling out of the Olympics. I mean, that would've been unheard of, right? I think, you know, C for how awful it's been. It has shined a lot of light on mental health and, and I think it was also a wake up call. Well, it kind of showed what was possible because it shut down the touring industry and it shut down these athletic performances, all of that. And it showed that it could be possible to shut them down too. It's so interesting. Thank you for sharing that too, because I think, you know, just as an ordinary person, in suburbia, like, what's up with these people? An exhaust, like, it just seems so glamorous, right? Mm-hmm. , but, but at the end of the day, like, You're a person and you, I mean, you have to take care of yourself and, and instead of becoming like a, just a cog in this machine making money, like I, it's hard to imagine, but I think you did a good job in your book of explaining that and hopefully helping other people in a similar situation. But I know a lot of people, you know, just to bring it back to. Ordinary, ordinary people like, I think a lot of people feel that way about getting help for their own problems. Like, oh, I could never leave my job. I couldn't go to rehab. How could I leave for 30 days? Everything would fall apart, my family would fall apart. I'd lose my job. You know, there's still that pressure we put on ourselves to get help. So how did you finally get. Ryan: Well, I was you know, I'm very fortunate that I did have the ability to take the time to really dedicate myself to my recovery. I, I really understand how for some people that option is, is really not as viable for some of the reasons you just stated. You know, obviously I can only tell my story. For me, my world was getting smaller and smaller in my addiction. Drinking was becoming the center of my world more and more, and I was becoming more isolated. Really just lacking any, any feeling of, of purpose or meaning in my life. And just kind of drinking, drinking until I passed out on my couch most nights. And it, it got really There were some really humbling moments that led to me getting help. And it was my girlfriend who was living with me finally telling me like, I don't wanna see you living this way. And I don't know what it's gonna mean for our relationship if, you know you get the help that you need. But I'd rather you be healthy and, and take care of yourself and just see where we can go from there than to see you. Killing yourself, basically. And I, I had been so humbled at that point. I, I, it was like at the end stages where all of my illusions of control over this thing had been shattered. It was very clear that it was entirely unmanageable, and I was, I was just headed towards worse and worse addiction until I die. And so there really was a sort of moment of clarity as, as messed up as I still was, that the only chance I had was just to start walking in the other direction. Thankfully my girlfriend and my therapist at the time were able to check me into. The Betty Ford Center out here in Southern California. And that was the start of the journey for me which was terrifying at first. You know, just showing up and detoxing for the first few days, shaking like a leaf, and and just really not knowing what it was gonna be. But within a really relatively short period of time, it became a really amazing experience and a, an awakening for me in. For the first time I felt connected for, for the first time in a long time. Felt connected to other people in a meaningful way connected to something larger than myself. And at first it was really just the program itself, you know? I didn't really have to think about a, a, a spiritual life beyond that. It was just, there were people here that were a few weeks or a month ahead of me in the, in the process and seemed to be doing really well, and seemed to be really comfortable in their own skin in a way that I wasn't. And so I was just kind of following the leader until a week or two in, I was feeling a little bit more comfortable, still really anxious, but better than I was. And then realizing the new people coming in behind. That were a week or two, you know earlier in their recovery than I was I could be of service to them. I could actually, you know, give them some encouragement. I could show them around and explain the process to them a little bit. And that was a powerful moment of sort of discovering what my definition of spirituality is. Just feeling that I could. I could have some purpose as down to the dumps as I had been. I could be helpful to another human being and, and be connected to someone else in that way. It it, it didn't require a connection to something ethereal. It was very human, you know, just, just the process of showing up and bringing the person I am in that moment to a situation in which that might actually be helpful to someone. It was, it was powerful. I felt, I felt a sense of purpose for the first time in a long time, and I just kind of followed that feeling as I moved forward into, when I finished at, at Betty Ford, I went into an outpatient program, continued the, the same kind of thing, and within six months I was volunteering at that outpatient clinic as a peer support and as a co-leader of groups and really just trying to tell my story and the things I'd learned in my early recovery to help. and that was just really powerful. Now that helped keep me sober and it helped give me a new sense of meaning in my life. And I did that for two years before I realized this is maybe something I wanna do for a living now, and had a lot of great encouragement from the people around me there. And so I decided to go back to school and get a master's degree in clinical psychology. To become some kind of counselor, and now I'm a therapist, so that's something I never could have foreseen and, and it wouldn't have happened had it not been for the journey of suffering. And of recovery that I've gone through, both as an alcoholic and as somebody with mental health challenges, to now be in a place where I have all the education that I gained from that whole long time in my life that was difficult, but now inspiring and realizing that I have new purpose and new, new ways to feel fulfilled in life, to use that to be of service to others. Deb: Yeah. That, that makes me think about that, that saying like, things don't happen to you, they happen for you. Ryan: Yeah. That's a, that's a great way of looking at it, because nobody wants to go through a hard time. Right. It's like we don't wake up in the morning and say, you know, the next six months of my life are gonna be hell. And it's hard to have the perspective when you're in the middle of something difficult. Cause we all life is, is is that way, right? Sometimes we think things are great and then something comes up. We all go through loss at some point in our life. We all deal with you know, the ebb and flow of life in terms of the ups and the downs. And it's hard to have that perspective of even, even from something this really seemingly bad, something wonderful could come from it, but one way or another, if you have that mentality, it will, you know, I mean if, if the, if the, if the, the good times inevitably end, so do the bad times, right? This two shall pass. And when it does, you have all of that perspective. To, to gain from it. You have all of the growth that comes from it, as long as you're willing to be humble and you're willing to accept what life is, is giving to you in that, what the lessons are and what the opportunities are. And you can look at them as challenges. That's why I refer to them as mental health challenges in my book rather than problems or issues. You know, it's like we're all faced with challenges in life somewhere along the line. Some more than others, of course. I mean, some people have relatively. Lives compared to others. And I consider myself one of those people, but we're all, we all have challenges. And a challenge is just that it's an opportunity to grow and to find new pathways in life. Deb: Yeah. I love that. So what would you say to someone who's listening and, and they're having the challenge of, of drinking and they're wanting to give up, drinking or change their drinking? Ryan: Well, that's, you know, there's, it's an interesting conversation going on, I feel like, in the public sphere in terms of our relationship to alcohol and alcoholism. You know, I, I think that, that the traditionally, you know, the 12 step sort of idea is that the first step is you have to find acceptance. You have to be truly humbled, you know, and admit that you're an alcoholic. That's why in meetings say, you know, hi, I'm Ryan, I'm an alcoholic. It's like until you, until you've really gotten on your knees and realized like, this is a, a disease, you know, that's, that. I can't fight it with my willpower. I have to surrender to a higher power to, to overcome this. I, I do believe in that process. I understand why people have an issue with it, and, and I, they wanna come up with new definitions of, I don't consider myself to have a disease, you know or I wanna change my relationship with alcohol. I don't wanna say that I'm an alcoholic. I don't consider myself a fall down drunk. I just, I am having a problem or with, with how it's affecting my life. It's a, it's an interesting dilemma because I do think that the first step for any. Whatever the program of recovery is, is a certain amount of acceptance and humility, right? It's to be able to recognize like, clearly my way of doing this is not working so well. Right? Even if it's like I drink a little too much on the weekends, I don't like the person I become, or it's affecting my relationships and you know, I just don't feel as good as I can. I'm kind of depressed and I wish I didn't rely on drinking so much. All the way up to I'm a fall down drunk drinking 24 7. Wherever you are in that journey, wherever, whatever kind of alcoholic you are or how you define it I can tell you that, that just saying I have control over it now is usually not the thing that's gonna work. , there are a lot of different avenues to recovery, but I, I do believe that the first step is reaching a certain level of accept. Okay, let me slow down for a minute. Clearly what I'm doing is working is it is not working. And if it were working, I wouldn't be having this debate with myself right now. Right. And there's, there's gotta be another way. And maybe it's something that's larger than me. Maybe it's not my willpower, it's not my, my mind and, and all the ways I've been trying to rationalize or, or. The feelings that I'm having, it's reaching out for help. You know, that's really essentially for any mental health challenge. One of the, the important first steps, being humble enough to recognize I need help and being, and, and hopefully not feeling the stigma that reaching out for help somehow makes you weak. It's the, it's the, it's the most powerful. Empowering thing that you can do for yourself is to recognize when I don't have all the answers, and that's okay. I wasn't given all of these answers that I need and somebody else might have them. So asking for help is really the thing that I'm doing to advocate for myself most. Deb: Yeah, those are very helpful and I'm glad that you brought up you know, the different ways and that the, the dialogue now is alternative ways of recovering and modern day recovery. And I'm, I'm more in that bucket. I'm didn't do AA or 12 step, and so I, I like to bring a lot of the biology and medical side of things. And like if. Don't identify as an alcoholic, like that's okay. You know, now we're using alcohol use disorder and it's on a spectrum, like you said, from mild to moderate to severe. But just recognizing that, hey, Maybe you can do something about this and, and maybe instead of asking like, do I have a problem with drinking? Would my life be better without alcohol? And, and seeing how you do without it and getting the help to do that. It seems so easy in Siri, right? Like to not do something like, Hey, we can solve your drinking problem. Just don't drink. Right? But it, it's just so much harder than. Ryan: It is. And I had a debate with one of my professors in grad school about this. I think he was just trying to make us think or just to be a contrarian. But he, he said that very same thing. He's like, it's very easy to not drink, just don't drink. You know, there's a drink on table. Don't pick it up. And, and I was, I was getting a little agitated. I was like, well, yes, in, in, in theory it's that simple. But if you have a problem with that, with, with, if you have a drinking. It's not that simple because there are forces that play in, in your mind and your body that are larger than your willpower in terms of just the, just, I'm gonna say I'm not gonna drink. So for some people, I do think it is helpful to say, I have this powerful and BIC disorder. Right? Yeah. Because being able to name it and be able to say, I am so humbled by this, you know, I have to admit this is a disease. Even if it doesn't technically meet the definition of a disease or your definition of disease, for some people that is a helpful statement, a helpful statement of, of humility to say, I am totally helpless with this, with this disorder. For other people, maybe it's not. And I do think that there are, there are multiple pathways. There's, there's not one pathway to recovery. And you know, you mentioned the, the biology and that whole idea of the neuroscience of addiction. The, the Matrix Institute, which is where I went for my outpatient program after I left Betty Ford was a cognitive behavioral therapy based program, not a 12 step program. And the, the, the biology, the brain biochemistry of a. Was a big part of the education that we gave people there, and that was really helpful, you know, because there's a reason why our minds, our brains become addicted and there are very specific pathways and neurotransmitters that are, that are at play when you are stuck in that loop, right? Mm-hmm. , when, when you be, when you've identified alcohol or any other substance as the solution. It's not just psychology, it's biology and chemistry. Right? So understanding how that works. We, we explained it in layman's terms. It wasn't like, you know, something that you have to be a a grad school student to understand it. It's pretty simple. But then just the, the basic psychology of it, you know, in order to stop a bad behavior, it's, it's better cuz it's really hard to just say, wake up one day and say, I'm gonna stop doing this bad behavior or this habit that I had been doing for 30 years. It's better to create new behaviors to replace it with, right? So we called that thought stopping or thought replacing where one thought that was unproductive for you. Just like, you know, telling yourself, telling myself I'm not good enough over and over again is gonna lead to depression. If you keep giving yourself that negative self thought, replacing that with a more positive thought, that facilitates hopefulness. And self-esteem. That's gonna be a very basic form of cognitive behavioral therapy to lead to a happier state of mind. Same thing with alcoholism. I think that's another effective way for me. I, I really retrained my mind in terms of my relationship with alcohol. Not that I could control it or that I had, I just needed to moderate it, but really to see it as poison for me to just like, When I see someone drinking a martini, I just kinda laugh and I'm like, oh, that person's drinking lighter fluid, basically. You know, that's cuz that's what it is to me. I know for me it's poison and so I really kind of did the C B T in terms of reprocessing alcohol in my mind as not this glamorous thing and this solution that I had built it up to be, but rather to be completely a hundred percent toxic. Deb: Yeah. And I think that goes to like when you are asking for help or seeking help, that part of that can be educating yourself. Mm-hmm. , educating yourself about the effects of alcohol and what it really is doing to your brain, to your body. Yeah. I'm curious because you had used some benzodiazepines and maybe some other drugs, I'm not sure, but I'm just curious why, what makes alcohol, like your thing? Mm-hmm. and do you find that when people have multiple use disorders, does it seem like alcohol is usually that number one. This is, what do you notice, ? Ryan: This is always a fun conversation amongst people in recovery. Yeah. I think everyone's different. Just as a person who is fascinated by psychology and passionate about it, I always find that, that people tend, tend to have one drug of choice. I mean, there are people that will come in if you go to a meeting, we'll say I'm an addict and you know, I was basically a garbage can. Whatever you gave me, I would. And I'm sure there are people like that, but I, I do find that oftentimes the number one drug for a lot of people kind of corresponds to their personality in some way or their personal issues. If you're medicating pain some way literal physical pain or emotional pain, I think you're, you're often times drawn to a pain killer of some kind, right? If you have, if you feel very low, if your self-esteem is very low, oftentimes I see people. That will go to a stimulant of some kind, you know, to make them feel like they're King Kong. Right? So there, there might, everyone's particular proclivity or way or their personal sensitivities might have something to do with the drug that they end up choosing. For me, I think the reason why alcohol was my drug of choice is because, It had a dual, it had a duality to it in terms of it relaxed the nerves, right? All the self-consciousness and the anxiety and, and shyness that I had had been a part of my personality. It was a lubricant for that. So it worked at first in terms of those things. But then also because of that, it actually made me feel more present, which is kind of a weird paradox because it's. Making you less cognitively, cognitively present. But because I got, I was able to get out of my own head so much, I felt actually like I was able to connect to the present moment more to people. That, of course, was an illusion. But that was what my relationship with alcohol was. Now you mentioned benzos. I, I did use benzos for a while. I never saw them as something to facilitate a good time. You know, alcohol to me was everything. If I could feel that buzz all the time, that was the perfect way to feel. And I was trying to get that feeling as much as possible. Benzos was just a way to avoid withdrawal or shakes and anxiety and panic. It was not a fun time. It was just what I considered medication or, you know, medicine. Now that doesn't make it any less of an addiction. It certainly was something that I misused. It was always prescribed, but I certainly misused it. And there were other drugs and things that I took at different times in recreational moments, but the Bezos were a big problem and made the alcoholism worse. Absolutely. Because it became a dual addiction. One was kind of perpetuating the other, I was trying to use the benzos to, as a way to control the drinking, but then I became dependent on the benzos and then the anxiety got worse because I would try to not take the benzos and that would make me drink more. It was just this ridiculous loop that I was stuck in this cycle of addiction, and it was but yeah, I, I don't think I ever put a, a Klonopin or a Xanax in my mouth and said, let's. It was just like, let me try to get the shakes to go away. You know, that was the thing. And alcohol every up until a certain point, every time I took a drink, I was, I, I was fooling myself into thinking, this is gonna be great, , I'm, I'm gonna feel great and have a party. And it wa it more and more was not that. I mean, it was like at the end it was like, I might feel great for an hour or a minute, but 98% of my day I felt anxious and then I felt good for like 1% and then I. You know, that was about it. So, I don't know, maybe it's an illusion to say that alcohol was my drug of choice because it was just another you know, whatever rationalization. But in my mind, at one point, for a long period, for a decade, it was the answer to my problems. So that's why it was number Deb: one. No, I, I mean, I get it. I always kind of wonder about it. It does come up sometimes, like for me, like pot doesn't do it for me, right? Nothing did it for me, like drinking, and I just find it interesting and I like to hear other people's thoughts on that. Ryan: Yeah, and everyone's chem chemistry is different, you know? I mean, I had friends that were, you know, a lot of musicians smoke a lot of pot, you know? Yeah. And they were always encouraging me like, you need to, you know, be part of the. The scene and it just didn't have the same effect on me. It made me paranoid, it made me very self-conscious. I didn't like the way that I felt. So yeah, I mean, to each their own we , you know, pick your poison . Deb: I know they're all poisoned . So how has your life changed since getting. Ryan: My life has changed night and days since getting sober. It's really been a an incredible and inspiring journey. You know, I kind of told you the, the early parts of it. And then going to grad school was just like another stage of, of my recovery and in my own therapy really. Cuz you know, I was doing everything I could. I, I, I mentioned the, the CBT program. The 12 steps, my own, you know, psychotherapy I was doing. I was, you know, my whole lifestyle. I was kind of an overhaul in terms of just getting out into the world more. Socializing enjoying nature, exercising, eating, but better, sleeping more, you know, just everything, a whole of self care routine. But then I went back to school and I'm in grad school and I'm studying psychology. The very thing which had been a challenge for me and, and, and gaining some mastery over just my understanding of some things. I didn't have a great understanding. Which of course also helped with the, the self-confidence that had gone down so much. And in the process of doing that and, and, and becoming a therapist, you have to do a lot of self-reflection and not just, just in the way you're doing therapy, but actually writing papers about it. Right. So that became a, just a whole other level to be like basically doing a case study on myself in terms of my psychology, everything that I had gone through and, and gotten me to where I, I. And where I was in recovery, that's what led to me wanting to write this book, harder to Breathe, because I realized that I had two things. One, this education that I could actually bring some meaning to what I had gone through and describe it in a way that I, I had some understanding. But it also was kind of like therapy for me. You know, a narrative therapy in terms of rewriting the story of my life in a way that would be helpful for me and hopefully helpful for others. So it had new, new meaning and new purpose to it. In the same way that we tell our story in a meeting and somebody else heres it, it might feel inspired that, you know, from your suffering that you actually were able to find recovery and, and healing. You know, hopefully people will read this book and, and see not necessarily the, the, the same journey as you said, the similarities, you know, not necessarily being in a band and having that experience, but the same feelings of anxiety or depression or perfectionism or putting a lot of pressure on yourself. Whatever it is that are very common, very human experiences that we all are challenged with at some point in our. If you can relate to my journey on those levels, then hopefully you'll, you'll relate to the ways in which I've been able to heal and grow in my recovery. So it's doing that, writing the book being on this journey now as a therapist, as somebody who's speaking to people like you and, and getting out there and spreading a message that I have in this book. It just has brought a whole other level of meaning to my life and another path that I could not have foresee. And I'm very grateful for it. In some ways, it's more meaningful even than being a big, you know, famous pop star , which was fun for a minute, but not sustainable . Deb: Yeah. That's so great. Well tell people how they can find you and find your book. Ryan: Yeah. So I have a website that just went up ryan dusik.com. It has everything that is me on there in terms of my. Speaking engagements media, and then, and then as a therapist and a life coach. So check out Ryan Duc Ryan ducek.com and then my book Harder to Breathe, is gonna be out in stores. It's November 15th. And you can order it on Amazon or Barnes and noble.com or, or walk into one of those stores. Buy it. And then my Instagram, Ryan Michael Desig Ryan underscore Michaels DIC is a fun place to check out some videos and stuff. Oh, Deb: good. Well, thank you. Thank you so much for writing the book and sharing your story and just giving people inspiration and, and just showing that like, we can all recover, we can all find meaning and purpose in our lives and help other people too. So thank you. Ryan: Thank you. I appreciate this opportunity. Okay. Deb: We're good. Great. Thank you. I think it's so cool what you're doing. I can tell like when you started talking about like what you're doing now and being a counselor like 10 times. More glowing than when you were talking about your time in Maroon five. Maybe that was just my perception, but Ryan: No, it's, you know, I mean there were, there were really good times in the band. You know, and mostly just in, in the years when we were working and developing in the brotherhood, the fellowship of that but it did become really painful and it became a double sword. And so, you know, my memory of it, of course is, is is marred by the trauma of that. And, and everything I'm doing now is really just it's all gravy. So there's no, I mean, it's hard work what I'm doing now, but it's. It's not, it's not, you know torturous . It's just, it's just good, hard work, you know? And it's, it's something that's fulfilling. So It is. Deb: Yeah. And I liked, I was gonna add, I liked how you shared how you have gone back to doing drumming and playing baseball or softball. I thought that was really like a full circle to finding joy, finding the things that originally gave you joy. Can give you joy now too. Ryan: Isn't that amazing? I mean yeah. I mean, people go through traumas in their life and oftentimes it changes their relationship with life in, in certain ways. And for me, those traumas in my past were really difficult to, to get past. But when you are in recovery you have the ability to start to, you know, Rewire some of those neuro pathways, you know, and, and make those connections for either things that had been meaningful for you in the past or finding new things that are meaningful to you in the present and future. I've been able to do a little of both, so it's just been a. You know, it's been inspiring and it's been something that I, I just wake up every day and just like, what, what is the best thing for me to do with my time today that's gonna be productive for me and hopefully for someone that I'm being of service to. If I'm doing that, I'm just putting one foot in front of the other you know, sooner or later good things come right. . Deb: I love it. I love it. Good. Well, I'm so glad we got to connect and Yeah, I think this will be helpful for people. So thank you so much. Thank you. And good luck with your book coming out and the book tour. I'm sure you have lots of speaking engagements. , Ryan: we're starting to get things lined up. It's good. It's just, just the beginning. Hopefully we'll see. So Deb: good. Okay. Well, thank you. I will email you, like I said, when it comes back and. Ryan: Kinda lost you there for a second, Deb: but I know this is good timing cuz my computer's about to die. Oddly, I don't know what's going on, Ryan. I'm having some technical difficulties, but we're good. We'll be in Ryan: touch. All right. Thank Deb: you so much again. Thank you. Bye Ryan: Bye.