Finding Your Meaning and Purpose with Megan O’Laughlin

pod megan 5 years Deb: Welcome back to the Alcohol Tipping Point Podcast. I am your host, Deb Masner. I'm a registered nurse, health coach and alcohol free badass. And today on the show I have our return guest. Now it's her third episode, so it's my friend Megan, Megan o Laughlin. She is a mindfulness instructor and a counselor. We know each other from way back from growing up in Moscow, Idaho, going to high school together and partying together. Actually fun fact too now, small world. Megan's brother is my daughter's high school Spanish teacher, , and I just love that. Anyway, so Megan was on some earlier episode. Right when I started, you were on episode five when you were sharing your story of giving up, drinking, and then episode 19 when you were talking about mindfulness and how we can use mindfulness to quit drinking. That was such like a great episode. Actually re-released it last year. And then today you're on because we are celebrating your five year sober anniversary. Yay. And then, yay. It's awesome. Congratulations. And then we're just gonna talk about how to find your meaning and purpose and how that kind of comes up a lot when you're in. , when you've given up alcohol, when you've given up anything, when you're like making some kind of life transition when your kids have left maybe, or your job has changed or you want your job to change or whatever. That just seems to be like a a common theme. Like how do we find our meaning? How do we find our purpose? So we're gonna get into all of that. So welcome back Megan. Megan: Thank you. Thank you, Deb, for having me back. It's great to be, , I'm so Deb: glad you're here. So can you give a little update for people who haven't listened to your earlier episodes? It's about who you are, what you do. Megan: Yeah, totally. It's actually funny that you said mindfulness instructor cuz I was like, oh yeah, I haven't done that for a while. Cuz I have people ask me like, when are you teaching a class again? I'm like, No, I'll probably do it eventually, but my mainly work as a psychotherapist and I've been doing that for about, I think it's been 12 or 13 years now, and I work primarily with adults and I help out a lot with. Challenges with anxiety and issues around like food and body as well as trauma recovery. And I work a lot with this has been newer since the pandemic started with fellow helpers and healthcare providers. Because the burnout is real, as I am sure. You know, and I'm sure you've witnessed in your line of work as well. And then I've also been doing a lot of creative writing, which I know we're gonna be talking about today. Deb: Oh, awesome. So you are already doing like very meaningful work. Megan: Yes. I would say I, I, I've been doing meaningful work for a long time. That's been something that has been really important to me, like from the get-go really. But I think really finding a way to feel. Embodied and content with the work has been a challenge and to really do it in a way that works for me. So that has been a lot of what I've been grappling with. I mean, really since about the time that I stopped drinking. I mean, that's kind of been my jam for the past five years is being like, okay, what exactly am I doing with this? Especially in a field. That is just so high burnout and where, you know, there's a lot of really obvious things happening around us right now that demonstrate that like the healthcare system is not working, the mental healthcare system is not working. So working within a system that's just like actively breaking down is very difficult. So trying to figure all that out has not been easy, and it's gonna be an ongoing process. Deb: , I mean, even as I was saying, like, you're, you're already do meaningful work, then I, I felt like I had to catch myself because. I think that I get caught up in how do I ha have meaning and purpose in my life and tie it a lot into what I'm doing, like what your job is or what your work is. And it doesn't always have to be like a caring or giving profession. And like you said, even if you're in that profession, like I'm in nursing, well actually I just left nursing, mm-hmm. , but I, even if you're in that profess. Not necessarily always giving you meaning and purpose. Megan: , definitely. And that's kind of the classic scenario, right? Is that somebody has that kind of helping job and they're like putting all of themselves into it. or kind of figuring out just how to cope with all the stress of it. And then there's like nothing left for the rest of their life, you know, for family or creative practice or really anything else like it. It can really drain people. So yeah, I think it's important to, when we're talking about purpose, that it's not just about. Our jobs. I think that that's really wrapped up in capitalism and kind of how we've been conditioned to look at things that like we are our professions and we're so much more than that. Deb: . Well, can you share cuz you said you kind of started thinking about what you were doing with your life, especially in these last five years since getting sober. Yeah. Like what, what's been going on with you these last five years? Megan: Well, when I, I was pretty freaked out about turning 40. Did you feel that way when you turned 40? It really freaked me out. I was like dirty Deb: and 40 . I was actually still drinking. I remember one of, I was actually, I was okay with 40. I don't know why, but I was like, okay, I was gonna own it. Now when 50 comes, that'll be different. I'm sure that'll be a different story. But you, you, you were. Freaking out at 40. Megan: And it wasn't how I would've imagined it. Like, oh, I'm old. I'm, you know, what is I, I can't believe I'm this old. I can't believe I look like this. Like, it wasn't anything like that. It was really about like, examining the details of my life and what I was doing. and just how I was showing up into my life every day. And so that was a huge, I mean, that was really a huge factor in deciding to just be done with alcohol altogether because I had been. Really experimenting with not drinking for years. I mean, that had been going on for more years than, than I'd just been drinking and not really feeling tortured about it. You know? I think it was probably about 15 years or something that I was like, I'm done okay now and I'm just gonna drink every once in a while. Like just that whole back and forth thing trying to moderate and then not really being able to do. So I just, I was like, you know what? This, this is taking up a lot of brain space and effort, and I think at this point I have enough data to know that it's just gonna be easier for me to just not drink at all. I've had plenty of time in my life to. Be intoxicated. I don't need to do it anymore. So it was like, okay, done with this. And I was going through a lot of job changes as well. At the time, I was a co-owner of a group practice and I specialized in a type of therapy called, Dialectical Behavioral therapy or D B T, which is an awesome therapy. It's also very intense and very structured and, and what I was finding was I did all this work to get trained in it and to like have this, this business with it and train other therapists how to do it. And I was like frustrated with how structured it was because I saw all sorts of situations where it didn't make sense to necessarily. Follow all of the rules of the evidence-based practice with the particular people I was working with. And I wanted to be more creative and flexible, but I was working within this context that didn't really allow for that. So I was starting to kind of feel, it sort of felt like being a teenager again. Like I felt really grumpy and rebellious. So I was just like, why is D B T telling me to do this? I don't wanna do this. This is stupid. And after a while I was like, okay, I don't have to do this. Like I, I'm a grownup. I can make a decision. to leave and do something else. So I actually left the group practice and went out on my own and that was when I started doing a lot of training and mindfulness and teaching mindfulness classes and exploring that realm as well as shift, just shifting how I was working with my clients and. Approaching things in a more like flexible and adaptable way which felt a lot more comfortable for me. It's kinda easy to sum it all up now, but at the time it felt like, I mean, professionally it felt like going through a divorce or something, you know? It really was like I had a business partnership that we dissolved and. It was probably like the healthiest relationship breakup I've ever had. You know, like we're, we're still friends and colleagues and everything. But it was really tough and I, and it was scary cause I didn't really know what I was gonna do. I was like, everybody knows me. It's this kind of therapist. Every referral I get is for this kind of therapy. Who am I without this? So that was a, a lot of it. And then I really just missed, you know, being creative and just having more time for that too. And, when space opened up when I wasn't drinking anymore and I wasn't doing such intense work anymore, I was finding myself like I was drawing again and I was spending a lot of time just like messing around in my garden and just trying to have fun with stuff like that and just getting really like experimental and that that was a really helpful process to go. Deb: , I, it's so interesting, e even being kind of in the same field, but also moving around within it and, and changing your identity a bit. Yeah. And yeah, because your original major was art, wasn't it? I think of you as an was artist. Megan: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I, I was an art major. That was what I did. And, and people would be like, what are you gonna do with that? That's not very practical. And I was like, it's fine, I'll figure it out. But then when, you know, I was in the real world, it was rather challenging. I actually tried to get into some graduate programs when I was about 25. It was when I was living in Boise, actually. And I saw you sometimes. And I was trying to get into some masters of fine arts programs then for writing and for art, and I didn't get into any of them. So then I decided to go more practical and go into social work. And I, it was almost like my whole family, like my grandparents and my parents especially, it was like, you could hear this like collective sigh. Like, oh, thank God she's not gonna do this like artist thing anymore. She's gonna do something that's gonna be more practical. Deb: But now here you are. And you're in a program for creative writing, Megan: correct? Yeah, I, I am. Yes. Yes. I started it almost two years ago, so I'm gonna graduate in July. So yeah, the, the degree that I wanted to get 20 years ago, I'm getting it now. So that's been a real adventure. To, to put it mildly . Deb: I, I just think it's so inspiring. I, I just love it when people pivot, they try something new or they go back to like what brought them joy or what they really wanted to do when they were a kid before, like, like you said, like there were all these expectations from your family or society of, of what, what do we do with our. You know, and yeah, how do we fit into these different boxes and we stay in these boxes for a while and, and even like drinking and drinking culture, I feel like that that was a box too. And so once you go against the grain of like what society is doing or thinks you should or shouldn't do, then I think you'd like get some more confidence to go out and do other things. Would you agree? Mm-hmm. . Megan: I absolutely agree. It's not as scary. Like once you start to have different experiences of doing that, you realize like, oh, it's actually okay. You know? Like I. I know anyone who's not drinking. We all have that experience. Well now during the pandemic we didn't really, or during the height of the pandemic is still going on. Right. But going out to a social event and being the person who doesn't drink, you know, that was like really aggravating for me. For a while. I felt really on the spot. I felt like I had to like explain a lot. I think also when I first stopped drinking, People would assume I was pregnant and like, now that I'm older, like that doesn't come up. But that was really annoying where it was like, I, I don't wanna get into all this, you know, about like what, you know, what's going on with me, whether it's like pregnancy or just not wanting to drink, but now like, that doesn't bug me at all because I've just had so much exposure to that experience of like being the one person who's sitting there like drinking sparkling water, just like whatever, like I. Goof around and play cards too, or whatever. So yeah, I think the more that we know that, like we still have a place in the world, even if we're doing things differently, especially if the things that we're doing really resonate with what we really care about and what we really value it, it just does make it easier to do more and more of that and to see the importance of seeking that out. Deb: You know, here you're celebrating five years, April 1st, and then it's your birthday coming up. So like what, what has kept you sober these five years as you're reflecting back? Megan: , it's, you know, these milestones are like a great opportunity for reflection and I'm really grateful to be here chatting about it. So thank you again. A friend of mine a while ago said that, I made it look really easy that I just kind of like one day was like, I'm not drinking anymore, and then just didn't do it and there was no back and forth. But like I said earlier, you know, there had been years of lead up to that. You know, I'd had a lot of practice with. Trying to stop drinking and then kind of knowing my own shit that would come up about like, oh, well, you know, I'll just have this glass of wine, like it'll be okay. So I was just very familiar with like how I would try to psych myself out and that. A lot of it was just really not helpful and really not true either that like, it was never just, I'm now I'm gonna have one glass of wine. It would be like, well then I'll have more tomorrow and I'll have even more next week. So I think just that honesty, like that radical honesty with myself and just having it be between me and myself, because pretty much everybody in my life has been like, it's fine. Like you, we don't really think you drank too much. Like it's not a big deal. And I'm like, well, this is, this is with me. You know, this is a deal that I made with myself. And so I didn't really let other people's messages kind of interfere with that because I wanted it to just stick. And then I think after a while, this has just become normal. Like I really don't even think about it that much. You know, somebody offers me a drink and I'm just like, Hmm. Or I just go somewhere and I automatically have like my LaCroix with me or whatever. People that I hang out with a lot, they kind of know, you know, like what, you know, my, my mom always has kombucha for me, which I really appreciate. I think that's really sweet. She always has in the fridge, she's like, stuff is weird, but here I got it for you, . And I know at this point, . If I were to have like one drink, I would feel horrible. Like I can't imagine how bad of a headache I would have, how would mess up my sleep and all of that. So I think feeling good has been really important too, that just like, I wanna keep that going and I don't wanna mess with it. I really don't wanna have a bad night's sleep. Like sleep is very precious. getting more and more precious all the time. So yeah. I just feel like I don't need it. I don't want it, and, and I, I really don't think I'll ever go back to it at this point. Deb: , I like talking to you because you just like an ordinary person who just gave up drinking, like you didn't go through some dramatic rock bottom or go to AA or rehab you, you know, you just, mm-hmm. obviously, you thought about it and put, put some time into taking breaks and making your decision and then did it. But, but just in, like you said, in, in a way that worked for you and was personal to you, what, what do you, do you call yourself sober or alcohol free, or what do you call yourself? Just curious. So I Megan: usually just say, I don't drink. . So I don't necessarily say like, I am this. I just say, yeah, I don't drink. And then if somebody else says, like, like a little while ago I was out at at at a bar with these other writers and I and I, and I was like, I'm gonna go get a drink. And someone went, aren't you sober? And I was like, I'm getting a Diet Coke. But when there's that, like if somebody else were to say, you know, you're sober or, or whatever, I'm like, yeah, that's fine. You know, the terminology doesn't really matter, but what I usually say by way of explanation is just I don't drink. Yeah. Deb: You just, you have like no drama Megan: around it. No, and it's very interesting, and I'm sure you have had this. You know, your listeners have too, that like people will assume drama, right? They'll be like, they'll assume that I'm in AA or I'm a recovering alcoholic or whatever. And, and like that very easily could have been me. I mean, I think I definitely have the genetics and the life circumstances where I could have been on that road very easily. But I got like really obsessive about other things in my life instead . So kind of had to sort that out. But yeah, there, there's like a lot of assumptions that can go out there, but yeah, for me there's not really any drama about it and I really want to like model that to people that like this doesn't need to be. And this, I really appreciate your work with this too. Like this doesn't need to be this black or white thing where either. Somebody has this like huge problem that's completely ruined their life and so then they stop drinking or they just kind of drink and like it's kind of a problem, but they just keep doing it because everybody else does it. That's like we can make a conscious decision to take some of that time and that energy back into our lives that that alcohol can take away. I really like how you often remind people that like there's a spectrum to all of this. It's not a black or white thing at all. Oh, totally. Deb: It's either , well, you can't drink at all. You're either in kind of this sober AA camp where it's like you can never drink, you're a bad person. This is a moral failing. This is. , you know, all of that. Mm-hmm. Or there's. People that are kind of like, well, I just, I'm, this isn't serving me anymore. I've reached the tipping point or whatnot. Like alcohol's taking more than it's giving, and I need a way to unwind this habit that I've developed. And so just having a safer way to do that. To like take a break or drink less or then get to the point where you're like, I'm not gonna drink at all. Which is easier for me. And I know like you said, you've tried moderation for a while and you're just like, you know what, I'm done. I have enough data, . Yeah. But this is no longer serving me and I'm done. And yeah, I mean you don't have to have a problem with drinking to give up, drinking. You can give it up cuz it's shit for your health and a multiple. Exactly. Other reasons. Yeah. Good. Well, let's get into helping someone discover their passion. What? Yeah. And I was thinking oh, Megan's kind of rediscovered her creative writing passion and then mm-hmm. , I'm sure that you've come across some clients who are just like, I don't know what I'm doing with my life, or how do I find meeting and purpose? And I know that's like huge topic. It's almost like almost feel like I'm asking you like, what's the meaning of life? . Megan: Right. easy questions, right? Yeah, Deb: yeah. Totally easy. Well, Megan: I got this piece of advice a few years ago from a friend where they, they recommended that I stopped doing things alone all the time. And it wasn't that I was like always by myself so much because everything I've done, I've always had. Really great, like coworkers and friends and colleagues and whatnot. But when it comes to really like sorting out stuff for myself, it had always been this really like internal lonely process. Whe because I didn't want other people to know that I didn't really know what, what I was doing. I was like, I want ev. I want this to look like, you know, not, not really consciously, but this was what I was putting out there. Like I want it to look like I've got it all together. I think a lot of us really feel like we have to do that, and it's really scary not to do that. So this friend recommended that, you know, what would it be like if I stopped doing that and I just started. like reaching out to people and letting them know that I was struggling. So especially when I was kind of having an identity crisis about therapy work and you know, what am I doing and am I going to really do this for the rest of my career? Am I gonna be able to do this for the rest of my career? Am I gonna get to like frustrated and burn out? And that didn't have anything to do with like my clients. So it was really about like working within. The systems that were just so frustrating to me all the time. So I just started reaching out and that was really helpful. And so what I did, and I think that this can be a way that that many people can start to sort this stuff out, is I just noticed what I was interested in. like where there was just this little spark of interest and I was doing this really at the beginning of the pandemic, and so this worked out kind of well because we were all on lockdown. And so I would reach out to like a friend or a coworker and I would, and I would say like, Hey, I would love to set up like a phone call or like a Zoom meeting. To talk about like this training that you did or to talk about, you know, this type of art that you do. And so I just was like chatting with all sorts of people doing cool things and just learning more about it. And sometimes I would be like, okay, well that's great. I'm glad I know that. But like the spark hasn't really grown and so I would like look into something else and look into something else. And that was what really got me on the track. Pursuing writing as intensely as I have the last couple years cuz I reached out to my friend Kelly Sunburg, another Idahoan, who is a beautiful writer and professor of English and she wrote a really great memoir called Goodbye Sweet Girl. And I reached out to her and I, and I just said, you know, I really think I want to try to write about my career in therapy and the problems I have with like the mental health system and what it's like to work in it. And I've tried to find books that talk about that and I haven't been able to find any, so maybe I need to write it. And she actually, I just wanted some suggestions for like books that could help me put all that together and she actually suggested that I look into a low residency MFA program and I'd never even heard of programs like that before. I assumed that to get a master's in fine arts in creative writing or in studio art or anything else that you have to actually. Move to like Iowa or Michigan or wherever and just like live there and just do the program and nothing else. But there are these programs that are created for people like me who like have careers and families and most of it is distance and you do one or two residencies and person a year. And it's still is just, you know, great experience. So just reaching out and talking to people has been really helpful. And what has come out from that is, Wonderful community. And I think that's a big part of what we're missing in general in our culture right now is like people having community and having folks that we can reach out to and talk to and count on and ask questions about all sorts of things. That feeling of having to figure it all out on your own is a lot of pressure, and I don't think that's the way that we're meant to do any of this at all. Yeah, I was Deb: just jotting down you were saying, don't do it alone. The community connection. Yeah. Reaching out. And what really stood out to me too is, is you were being really curious. You're like, maybe I'll go check out this. This kind of is peaking my interest. And then you were like, maybe not . Yeah. And then you moved on to the next thing. I mean, that's what's so fun, right? You can just get curious. Megan: One thing I got really curious about was tarantulas and so I like learned all about tarantulas. Yeah. I ha I still have two of 'em for a while. I had like a lot and I was like, yeah. I was like raising baby tarantulas and stuff and I was like, okay, this is like taking up a lot of time in my life. I don't really think this is what I wanna do with a lot of my free time. They're, they're very interesting. I really like them, but now I just have two of them, and so that's, that's pretty easy to take care of them. But yeah, that was kinda like, okay, I, I learned about tarantulas. I can move on from that now and explore something else. Yeah. , Deb: that, that's a very unusual one. Megan: Yes. And it's always like a, Like icebreaker sort of thing. You know, when you're in a situation where it's like two truths and a lie, like, I'll say that I have tarantulas and people people always assume that I'm lying and I'm like, no, I really do. . Deb: I love it. I love it. So what are some other ways we can, you know, it still kind of seems tied into like your career or what you're doing. What about people who are retiring or they're transitioning? What is some advice you have for finding meaning or purpose at that stage? Megan: , I mean my, my search has been very tied up in kind of like what I'm doing. like career wise. And, and I think that has a lot to do with being kind of like, at this point, like mid-career where it's like, okay, I gotta figure this out, like what I'm gonna be doing for the next while. But yeah, there's not, everybody's gonna be in that situation for all sorts of reasons. I even know people who are our age, who, you know, what their, their stay-at-home parents, you know? So like career stuff is not so much what they're focusing on or people. Older and they're retiring, they're gonna be focusing on something else. I think that same idea can still be present of just noticing like what you're interested in, even as far as it has to do with like different hobbies and activities, you know, to just try different things. So often we're trying to make, like decide everything in our minds and like come to like. Conclusion before we actually take any action. And that doesn't, that's not really how things work. You know, we really sort things out by doing things. And so I think exploring ideas and then just trying different things, whether that means volunteering somewhere or going along with a friend to do something. Just experimenting and having that curiosity and just seeing like where the interest goes and like where the love goes. You know, like if, if you're just really feeling like, oh my gosh, I, I think this is so great, I wanna learn more about it. To really follow that and not get too caught up. I know our minds really like to jump ahead, but if it's like, what does it mean? I know when I started writing, I was, I'll never publish anything. Like I can't publish stuff about therapy because therapists aren't supposed to share about stuff, and it's like, just slow down, you know? Like I haven't even sat down to write anything yet. So we gotta catch ourselves when we do that, where it's like, what does it mean? Like, I can't afford to do this, or just, okay, what would be like one step or half a step? Like what's one thing that I could do to move forward with this? Sometimes that can even be as simple. Looking something up online or reaching out to someone you know, and asking them a question about something. My aunt, for example, is like the most talented gardener. Her backyard is amazing. And so what she's done in her retirement is a master gardening program, and now I think she teaches in that program and she like helps do landscaping for Habitat for humanity. And then does her own stuff in her yard. And so that's been like a huge pleasure for her to pursue. So, I mean, there's just so many things to look out for. I, Deb: I was gonna share some prompts that I had found about just finding your purpose and some things to get you thinking about. So one is when I was a child, I loved. I love going back to this question because it, it just, I mean, when we're kids, we're just like, we're playing. We're just so unencumbered by societal expectations and what we loved doing. What did you love doing as a kid, Megan? Megan: I loved writing and drawing and I loved swimming and being around animals. Just kind of like being in my imagination. So, yeah. What about you? Deb: See, I always loved writing too. I kept a journal for a long time. It, it's totally embarrassing, but I do remember for a long time I was like, I'm gonna be a writer. You know, that was always what I love to read. And I'd love to just like explore, play in the ditches and Megan: Yeah. The eighties childhood, just running around total Deb: eighties childhood. Come home when it gets dark. Totally. And listening to music and was like, we had, I think, you know, I try to listen to more and more music now, but that stage of your life, cuz I really see it with my girls who are teenagers. They're so into music. They have a constant like soundtrack going just, it's just, I, there's something about children and music that I feel like we kind of lose that as we get older and I'm not sure why. At least that's my experience. Megan: Oh yeah, I agree. I have to really challenge myself to like branch out and find new music. And I often am going back to things that I listen to, like when I was way younger, you know, and it's like, okay, like this is a great album, but like there's other stuff out there too. Deb: Yeah. Yeah. Totally. . Okay. Here's some other prompts. We don't, we don't have to answer them all, but something to get you all thinking about. If money didn't matter, I would be, although that is a huge one because we, we really tie what we do to the money. If I believed I could not fail, I would, I completely lose track of time when I am. I am most happy with who I am when I, I'm really good at, if I didn't care what others thought of me, I would. That's a good one. Yeah. I know some of those stand out a little more to me than others. Yeah. It in my free time, I love to, if I only had six months to live, I would spend my time. And then the following people inspire me because they, and so those prompts just kind of get you thinking, like, oh, like if I had six months to live, I would spend my time. What would you do, Megan? Megan: I'd probably spend as much time as I could with my family, especially with my daughter. And yeah. And then I'd probably really wanna work on my writing too. Yeah. Deb: And put something out there and leave it. Yeah. Megan: Yeah. And, and, and maybe in a different way, like, I think I would probably wanna be writing. For, for my child. You know, kind of like passing things onto her. Or maybe even she, she actually, she's eight now. She really likes to read and write as well, which is really fun. Maybe we could do like a project together. Yeah, Deb: It just kind of all brings it back to your, you and your family right now and what you're doing right now. Right. And takes away the whole external focus that we kind of get caught up in. Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . Megan: . You know, the one that you said about the, I can't remember exactly what it was, but about like admiring someone else if you are admiring what somebody else is doing, it makes me think of, and this is something I talk about in therapy e every once in a while, like fairly often, it comes up about the emotion of envy. We're, we often like dread that feeling of like feeling envy towards somebody else. However, that can be like a really wonderful way to really tune into what we really want. So if, if you're feeling envious about somebody because they have a certain kind of relationship or they have a lot of free time, or they seem really good at a particular skill like that is actually highlighting something. that is important to you. And it doesn't mean that we have to go to some like nefarious destructive place with it and be like, I'm gonna tear down everything you have, you know? That's what scares us about envy. I think it can be more about like revealing what we really care about and what we really wanna be doing ourselves. And then of course we wanna make sure that we're like practicing gratitude and like wishing the other person well so it doesn't get kind of toxic. But I think that's a great thing to look at is just kinda like, who do I know in my life who seems to be doing really cool things? You know, like, and then that could be a person to talk to about that too, cuz most people love to talk about the stuff that they're interested in and the stuff that they spend a lot of time doing. Like few people are gonna be like, oh no, I don't wanna talk about that. Deb: That def, I mean, that goes back to you like reaching out to other people and having community and not doing it alone. Megan: Absolutely. Yeah. Like self-help books are great. I know, I know there's a lot of 'em out there. I've read a lot of 'em. I know a lot of people read them, but like, This is not the way that we're gonna like sort out our lives is by like sitting in a room alone, reading a self-help book. Like read some of that and learn some stuff. But then you gotta get out in the world and you need to like interact with people. Like that's what we're really meant to do. We are very social creatures and so we need to have that community around us. Deb: Something , that comes up too, like when we're like striving for something else or trying to find purpose or meaning. Is that , I just like to remind people , you are okay right now. right now you are enough and you are worthy. Yeah. This could be extra. But, but I want you to recognize like you don't have to change anything in your life to accept who you are and love who you're you are right now. And know that you are 100% worthy right now. You always have been. You always will be , this is just extra. Megan: Absolutely. Yeah. I think that's really important and it kind of goes into like, why do we feel like we need to change? You know, is it really more about , can we offer ourselves compassion and grace? Because a lot of times people are in situations where they don't have, they, they can't go out and explore all this stuff. They might not have the time, they might not have the resources. They might not know how to start. They might be too overwhelmed by anxiety. There's all sorts of barriers that can come up to that. Also, Recognizing that we are all worthy in at any time worthy of acceptance and love and just being present at any time. You have to like do extra work and accomplish extra things to do that. I Deb: mean, and even if you're like working on changing your drinking, you, you know, don't, don't delay. Your compassion and contentment with yourself until you get sober. You know? Yes. I, I think that happens a lot with a lot of things like, well, once I get that job, then I'll be happy. Or once I leave this job, then I'll be happy. You know? Like really also finding ways to be. . Okay. Now and you had mentioned gratitude and I know that in mindfulness, that is a way to be grateful for the present moment, what you have now. Yeah. What would you add to that? Megan: Well, what you're saying, it makes me think of one of my favorite mindfulness books, which is wherever you go, there you are by John Katzin, which I actually was like the first thing I ever read that had anything to do with mindfulness many years ago. And, , it was like this huge light bulb went off. Like, whoa, like a completely different way of looking at things. But yeah, we're really prone our, our minds, I think we talked about this another time when I came here to chat with you. Our minds are really skilled at tuning into what's difficult and what's challenging. Like that's, we are, we have evolved to do that and it helps with our survival. So we have to intentionally. Do these practices to have gratitude and have compassion for ourselves and others. So I think finding a way to cultivate some kind of practice around that is really helpful because it doesn't come naturally for most of us. What comes naturally for most of us is a lot of ruminating and beating ourselves up. And have compassion for ourselves and others. So I think finding a way to cultivate some kind of practice around that is really helpful because it doesn't come naturally for most of us. What comes naturally for most of us is a lot of ruminating and beating ourselves up that kind of thing. We don't have to do any work to do that, but we do have to do some work to like be okay with ourselves. Deb: Mm-hmm. . And I feel like it's that some, it could be perceived as a struggle between like, okay, I am content right now and I want to grow. Yeah. But how, how can I grow and move ahead and be content now I. Of course you can. As I said that out loud, I'm like, well, duh, . But I guess that's because we have no guarantee about the future, right? We don't know what's gonna happen later today or tomorrow. Like this could be it. So, so I always find myself coming back to the present moment, but then also I find, you know, it, it is so important to. to grow and to look forward to things and to challenge yourself and to be curious and to have live by your values. And you know, that's what's going on in my brain right now. Sometimes I overcomplicate it. . Yeah. Yeah. Megan: No, I I don't think you're over complicating it. I think you're speaking to something that's very true. Because if we're just like comfortable all the time, we get bored. Like that's another thing that I think like isn. It's not it's not part of our human nature to just be like, I feel great. Like I, like I watched my dog. I mean, look at him back there. This dude has no worries. He's just like, when are we gonna go play fetch? When am I gonna eat? I'm like, that is so great that you are like that. You know, humans, we're not like that. So we actually need to be outside of the comfort zone. in, in different ways. That is actually how we learn and grow. And when we're building that mastery in whatever we're doing, that can help us with our own sense of like confidence in ourselves. Because we, we have these like big brains that are constantly wanting to learn and wanting to do new things. And so a lot of times when people are feeling really stuck, it's because there may. Kind of doing, and I know this has been my experience, like when I felt stuck, kind of like what I was describing about when I was doing D B T work. It was kind of like I'm just sort of doing the same thing over and over again. And that's not really like, that's not really helping me feel like I'm growing in the way that I wanna grow. Yeah. Thank you for Deb: sharing that. That's. And I just think it it, if we didn't grow, if you didn't start putting your writing out there, if I hadn't started at tp, like if you know, John Katzin hadn't written his book and shared that with the world, what would the world be like if we didn't grow? I mean, that's just what we do, right? So I guess it's that Megan: balance. Yeah. Yeah. And it's, yeah, exactly. And it's really normal to, to be like, what am I doing? I'm pretty sure that this is really crappy and and, and that I love that question about what would I do if I didn't worry about what other people think? You know, cuz that often can get in the way of us, like just trying out and pursuing things. Is that worry that like we're gonna be judged or so. , but I think most of us can access that part of us that's kind of like, you know, just wanting to explore and try new things. Yeah, definitely. Deb: Well, what are, what are some other thoughts that you have before we wrapped up about just finding our purpose or meaning, and especially for people who are in recovery or they've changed, they quit drinking. No. Or whatever they call the. . Megan: Well, one thing I was thinking about that I think is really in line with a lot of this conversation is that the ideas of the stages of change that comes from motivational interviewing where and, and like. Full disclosure, I did a training on this like over 10 years ago, so like I am, this is not like something I'm an expert on at all, but I think recognizing these stages of change is really important because a lot of times when we're looking at change, whether it's starting a new project or quitting drinking or whatever, we look at the actual like concrete behavior itself. You know, like, okay, this person drank yesterday and today they don't. , but there's this whole process that leads up to that that's really important to acknowledge. So it's kind of like that iceberg metaphor where there's like the tip of the iceberg outta the water and underneath there's that huge mass. And we don't necessarily see that under the water. So there's the stage of pre-contemplation where somebody is in the even thinking about making a change. And they're just like, like I said earlier, gathering data, you know, just like accumulating information, observing what's going on that can inform what happens later. And then contemplation where a person starts to think about it. I know I used to really. Look at people who didn't drink and be like, that's cool. Like that's really interesting. Why did they stop drinking? What are they drinking instead at this party? Like I was just really curious about it and it started to get my mind going. And then there's preparation and then we get into action, and then we have maintenance of actually like keeping up with whatever the change is. So I think if anybody is looking. Moving towards some kind of big change in their lives or even a smaller change to recognize that even just thinking about it or even just hearing something about it and then going about your day like that, those are very worthy parts of the process. Deb: Absolutely it does. Like you have to go through that in a way you don't, I mean, hindsight 2020, you realize, oh, I, that's where I was, that's what I was doing. . Yeah. And now here I am. , I love those kinds of models and things cuz I just like. knowing that it's normal, it's been studied, like this is normal. Mm-hmm. , we all go through this. It can look different for everyone. It's of course not like a perfect linear model or whatnot, but it's totally normal and doable . Megan: , definitely. And if we can have, cuz even like that model, motivational interviewing is supposed to be like a way. Someone would communicate with somebody else who's wanting to change. Like, we can also interact with ourselves in that way where we can just have all of this openness and curiosity about what we're experiencing and like what we would wanna do with that moving forward. So even if somebody out there is like, I think there is something I wanna do to find more purpose, it could even just be like, let. See what strikes my fancy, you know, maybe they will end up collecting tarantulas too. Who knows? ? Probably not. Maybe, Deb: maybe. Well, I'm curious what you're gonna be doing in the future, Megan. Megan: What I'm gonna be doing, I, I guess probably some of the same stuff I'm doing now. I'm planning to keep up with my therapy work. and keep up with my writing. Like I said, I'm gonna graduate in July and then I'll be done with my program and I'm hoping to just balance my time with doing therapy work and then also doing some writing. My next project, I've been writing so much about secondary trauma and, and mental health work. My next project I want to. very different than that. Like I'm ready to kind of move on from those topics that have been really helpful to write about, but it's been challenging in a lot of ways too. So I wanna get into some more like fun research oriented type things. Yeah. And then I, you know, I've been so, like immersed in this program, I'm also hoping to. Go on some fun trips. We just went and applied for a passport for my daughter, so when that comes through, I think we're gonna head up to BC and I'd love to come out to Boise sometimes. So yeah, just like living and exploring. Yeah. Deb: Nice. Well, how can someone find you? I. Megan: Well, I am on Instagram and on Twitter, and my handle is Megan e Lin, and I also have a website that has a lot of my therapy related information that's under megan lin.com. Deb: Excellent. . Well, congratulations on five years and happy birthday. Thank you so much. Excited for you. I think this was, thank you. A good talk. It's gonna help people figure out what they wanna do, which is kind of fun. Like make it Megan: fun. Can't fun. I think that's so important. You know, get, get silly and goofy and have some fun. Like I felt like when I stopped drinking. I didn't really know how to do that anymore cuz I often associated drinking with like being silly and kind of letting loose. And so that was kind of an exploration of like, oh, I can still like, have fun and like find some silliness without drinking. And like, that's often how we like access, you know, like what we're really jazzed about. So yeah, make it fun. Make it silly. Deb: I love it. Yeah. I, I like to say like, I didn't get sober just to get sober. Like I wanna go do stuff, I wanna explore the world. I wanna just like eat it all up, you know? Yeah. Megan: Yeah. Like your Sunrise, Hawaii pictures, like wow. Yeah. Deb: Yeah. It's just , that just makes it so worth it. you know, now having so much more time and bandwidth to just really explore these different things that we like to do. I mean, so much was taken up by drinking so much mind, space and time, physically, mentally, all of that. So now it's just like, wow. It's like you get a second. To really re-explore what you loved when you were a kid and, and just do different things and, and do them now. It's great. Yes, Megan: yes. Deb: Great. Well, happy day to you, Megan. Happy birthday. Thank you. Happy, happy sober anniversary and we'll talk Megan: soon. Thank you so much for having me, Deb. Take care.