Episode Transcript
[00:00:02] Speaker A: Welcome to the Alcohol Tipping Point podcast. I'm your host, Deb Maisner. I'm a registered nurse, health coach, and alcohol free badass. I have found that there's more than one way to address drinking. If you've ever asked yourself if drinking is taking more than it's giving, or if you found that you're drinking more than usual, you may have reached your own alcohol tipping point. The Alcohol Tipping Point is a podcast for you to find tips, tools and thoughts to change your drinking. Whether you're ready to quit forever or a week, this is the place for you. You are not stuck and you can change. Let's get started.
Well, welcome to the Alcohol Tipping Point podcast. Today on the show, I have Ian Morgan Cron. He is a bestselling author, psychotherapist, Enneagram teacher, a priest, and the host of the popular podcast Typology. His books include the Enneagram Primer, the Road Back to you, An Enneagram Journey to Self Discovery, which has sold over 1 million copies. Congratulations. And Ian's newest book is called the how the 12 steps offer a surprising path of transformation for the well adjusted, the down and out, and everyone in between. Thanks for coming on the show, Ian.
[00:01:23] Speaker B: Man, it's a pleasure. Thanks for having me.
[00:01:26] Speaker A: Well, let's start with the Enneagram, because that's your thing. You've been doing your podcast for years now, it sounds like. Can you just give us, like, a brief background about the Enneagram and how you got into it?
[00:01:42] Speaker B: Yeah. So the Enneagram is a personality typing system that teaches there are nine basic personality styles in the world, one of which we gravitate toward and adopt in childhood, just as a way to cope, feel safe, to protect ourselves, and to navigate the new world of relationships in which we find ourselves.
Now, each of those types has a unconscious, underlying motivation, core motivation, that powerfully influences how that type acts, thinks and feels from moment to moment on a daily basis. And I discovered the Enneagram many years ago when I was training to become a psychotherapist. I was in graduate school. I happened upon a book about it by a guy named Richard Rohr. And I remember thinking to myself, holy smokes. I've been studying, you know, abnormal person, abnormal psych, and personality development, and, you know, on and on. And I was like, where did. Where has this been? You know, like, this is like such a great, efficient shorthand for clinicians and just people who want to understand themselves better.
[00:02:55] Speaker A: I admittedly don't know a lot about the Enneagram and So I took a test, and I was number two.
[00:03:03] Speaker B: The home. Yeah.
[00:03:06] Speaker A: And I was just curious, like, is there. Have you noticed, like, a correlation between someone's enneagram number and, like, their likelihood to become addicted, to have drinking problems? Have you seen any patterns there?
[00:03:22] Speaker B: You know, I really think addiction is so ding dang complicated, you know, Like, I think there's. I think there's a genetic component, there's a familial, environmental component, there's trauma components, there's, you know, socioeconomic components. There's, you know, just a slew of forces that come together, not to mention the neurological. The neuroscience of addiction. So, I mean, any type on the enneagram could become an alcoholic or a drug addict. You know what I mean? Like, it's like it. That's a. It's a. That's sort of an equal opportunity condition. You know, there's. It's not. Now, that said, you know, do I see certain types more than others in the rooms of recovery?
No, I see a pretty good representation of every type on the Enneagram, you know, in. In recovery. So, yeah, when people talk about, oh, he has an addictive personality, I'm like, there's no such thing, you know? Yeah, they're just, you know, it's not a. It's not a personality deal, you know, it's much more complicated than that.
[00:04:31] Speaker A: Yeah, thank you for that. I. I always tell people, like, anyone can. You know, my thing is focusing on drinking and alcohol. Like, anyone can. Can become addicted to alcohol. You can take anyone and put them in a room, give them enough of the substance, and they will become addicted. And it. It's just, you know, yes, some people reach that ceiling sooner than others, like you said, with the trauma, family history, maybe the age they started, their social, environmental setting, all of that. But we all have that potential in us. And I think that just kind of normalizes things too, because we kind of think there's a type. Like you said, like an addictive personality.
[00:05:15] Speaker B: Yeah. And. And actually, you know, there are people who. Whose personality is particularly intense and who have maybe impulse control problems and other. You know, and plus, there's other conditions that can get involved. You know, depression, anxiety, can fuel addictions. And so again, it's like, for me, and I say this not as. From any particular religious perspective. I think. I think Bill W. Was onto something when he said, you know, this is not a principally a moral or psychological problem. This is a spiritual problem. And what I mean by that is that there's a. There does seem to be A universal crisis of meaning among people that I meet in.
Who are struggling with alcohol. Right. And so when I use the term spiritual, I mean it in that sense of the word, you know, not necessarily, you know, Buddhist or Christian or Hindu or anything like that. It just has to do with spirituality, or at least this. It seems to me the solution that I've had the best experience with has a spiritual component.
[00:06:26] Speaker A: Yeah. Which makes sense because you're trained as a Episcopal priest. You've started a. You had a church at one point.
[00:06:36] Speaker B: Yeah. It's been many years since you've spread in your life. Yeah. But it's been many years since that.
I would say that, however, that at least in the tradition of the 12 steps, spirituality really just has to do with the surrendering of self to some higher power, to something greater than you. Now, that doesn't. I know plenty of agnostics and atheists in aa, you know what I'm saying? Or NA and other programs. Right. Like, I know plenty of them. Higher power could mean nature, it could mean art, it could mean the people in the rooms that you are sharing community with, you know, trying to find sobriety. So, you know, people have this impression that the rooms of recovery, they're sort of pushing a theistic worldview, and actually it's not right. If that's your thing, great. If that's what works for you, fantastic. But there are an infinite number of possibilities from which you can choose your higher power. As long as it's not you, that's the key. You know what I'm saying? Like, in other words, you have not proven yourself to be a very reliable deity if you're showing up in the rooms, you know what I mean? Like, you've had some problems along the way, so something greater than you probably has to intervene.
[00:07:58] Speaker A: Yeah. Well, can you share a bit about your story and your background with first giving up drinking and then you had issues with drug use later on? Can you share about your experience?
[00:08:14] Speaker B: So I first got sober many years ago from, you know, an alcohol problem.
And I, you know, probably developed a.
You know, became an alcoholic when I was in college. You know, like, even in college, people would say to me, and I. I mean, everyone I was with partied as hard as I did, but. But everyone. Many people in my peer group were like, yeah, but you drink a little differently than we do. Like. Like, they could just even. They were like, I'm a little uncomfortable with the way you drink. It's like, you know, not quite the way we drink. And I guess that just Speaks to the quality of the relationship. You know, like, I don't. When people come to me and say, I think I have a drink problem, I don't, you know, I'll ask them how much you drinking? But it's not the quantity. It's the quality of the relationship that I, I pay more attention to, you know. And so anyway, I got sober in 1987 and there were no. Back then, there really. There was no treatment industry per se. You know, it's like you didn't go away for 30 or 60 or 90 days in those days. It's like it wasn't covered by insurance and you had to have a lot of money. There were very few of them around.
So I just had a therapist who said to me when I went to see them, because by the time I got to the end of my run, I was very depressed and having panic attacks. So much anxiety. And he, he just looked at this guy was in recovery and he said, you have a drinking problem, and because you have a drinking problem, I can't see you. Like, like we're not going to get anywhere. So if you, if you want to see me, you have to go to. Go to a program for like a 12 step program, go to meetings.
And I was like, hell no.
You know, Ann Lamont has this great quote. She says, you know, trying to reason with an alcoholic is like trying to blow out a light. Bu. You know, and it's like, that's how I was at that moment. But a few weeks later, I just had what my wife calls the Night of the Living Dead in New York City on New Year's Eve. And it's, it's a storied night that ended badly all the way around. And she said, you've. You've got to go back and see that guy and go to meetings. So that's. That's where it began. I went to meetings for a couple of years. The obsession with drinking was expelled.
And I never really threw myself. I kind of audited 12 step groups. Do you know what I mean? Like, I didn't really sign up for the class. I just kind of went and listened, you know, and then many, many years later, four years ago, a little over four years ago, I relapsed on prescription medication specifically, just taking eventually very big doses of Adderall and Xanax and Klonopin and, you know, eating edibles and doing the thing, you know, and ended up in treatment.
Spent 30 days in treatment and decided that I would embark on a.
I would embrace the 12 steps as a design for living, to help address the underlying causes and conditions of my addiction and to best live into the highest expression of myself. Now, I recognize that's not for everybody, you know, and I just, even, even people in. In 12 step recovery say, look, we don't care how you get sober as long as you get sober. Like. Like, it could be here.
We don't think that we have the market cornered on how people get sober. It's just the way that I chose and it's worked so far.
[00:11:53] Speaker A: Yeah. Well, congratulations to you. Thank you. And thank you for sharing your different experiences. Getting sober in the 80s versus now and the different substances. And that's interesting about that. So the inpatient rehab, the treatment programs weren't really there in the 80s?
[00:12:12] Speaker B: Not really. I mean, there was, like, Betty Ford and there was Hazelden maybe, but you had to be a rich person who didn't need to. Like, there was. No, there was. I don't even know if the DSM in those days had a cat. I'm sure it did have a category. They call it substance use disorder now. But, I mean, these weren't covered in insurance. And it was. It was kind of a rich guy's game to go away to a. Go to. It used to call it, you know, going to the farm. You know what I mean? Like, you know, oh, he's out on the farm, you know, and so that just wasn't available to me, you know, at that point. And. But, you know, that's how the story goes.
[00:12:48] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. I had a guy on who, he's a yoga teacher, and he works, like, in a Malibu treatment center. And he. He was sharing, you know, I was like, ooh, like, you're. You work out. You know, it sounds. We. We kind of have that stereotype in our head, like, oh, that must be a fancy celebrity one. And he said he was sharing kind of the same thing. Like, they're really not how they used to be, you know, now it's covered by insurance or Medicaid or it's not just for the rich people anymore. Right, yeah. Which I think is a good thing because I think, you know, for people who need it, like, that's great. Like, if you need somewhere where you need to get inpatient detox, a medical detox where you need some more intensive help, then wonderful. And same with AA in the 12 steps, too. Like, if that's something that you need and is helpful to you and it's free, which is wonderful. Like, okay, check that out. I know that, like, myself, I Never really. I couldn't see myself going to aa. I didn't need inpatient rehab or medical detox. And for me, I just could not resonate with AA or the 12 steps. And so I. Before we started recording, you're like, do you have some. What did you call them? Hostile?
[00:14:15] Speaker B: Well, you know, some people are. You know, there are.
[00:14:18] Speaker A: Yeah, let's talk about that.
[00:14:20] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, I just recognize. Yeah. So look, it's like I said before, I really feel like the 12 step community that I'm in, we don't in any way, shape or form say this is the only way. You know what I'm saying? It is a way. And actually, the steps are just suggestions. I mean, that's what it says in the big Book of aa, right? They're suggestions. It's a very. And in fact, I said the other night at a meeting, I said, you know, the reason I stayed is because you all told me I could leave.
Do you know what I'm saying? It's like nobody. It's not like a cult or something where everybody gets you in the room and tries to separate you from your family members. You know, actually, quite the contrary. They're trying to get your. Your relational, you know, to help you get your relational world put back into order. Right? And it costs a dollar. No one's trying to take all my money. You know, it's. It's. It's actually quite a. I mean, just as an organization, it's actually kind of miraculous it still exists, given how loosely structured it is. The fact that it has no real governance. You know, it's like just kind of organically exists, which I think speaks highly of it. So all to say that when I meet critics, you know, I'm like, well, I mean, it's helped millions of people. You know, like, someone will say to me, well, the percentages of people who get into recovery is only X, Y and Z through 12 step programs. Well, first of all, their numbers are usually skewed, right, because there's no sample pool you can really pull from to get accurate data. Right. It's like people flying.
[00:15:59] Speaker A: It's anonymous.
[00:16:00] Speaker B: Yeah, first of all, it's anonymous. I mean, it's like, it's very, very complicated. You couldn't possibly figure this out, right? And I'm like, well, look, it's helped millions of people. So what's your problem with it? You know what I mean? It's like, what's the big deal? If it's not for you, that's fine. No one's telling you, you have to do it. You know, I also recognize that some people, you know, they've had a couple of bad experiences with, you know, maybe they went to a bad meeting, they got around people who were kind of fundamentalists around, you know, there's plenty of those, you know, you can run into. But I'm like, wherever you get three or four human beings together, you're going to start getting problems, right? It's like you have like when someone says to me, well, I had a bad experience at aa, so I don't go anymore because somebody was rude to me or something happened, right? And I'm like, what happens at your condo association meetings, right? Like, do you stop going to those when people do that? You know what I mean? It's like wherever there, you just have to be gracious and realize. I mean, for me, I'm like, you know, I'm going to run into coconuts everywhere. So if, if I go to a meeting and I don't, like, I just don't go back, I go to a different one. I find the ones I feel comfortable at and make a home there. And so, you know, people can find all kinds of objections, I suppose. But I, I could only speak for me and say it's been a really, really positive experience.
[00:17:20] Speaker A: I appreciate you saying that and just being willing to have conversations about it. I think for me personally, I can see the resistance to the black and white. And I'll just speak from my experience.
I always was putting drinking into this black and white category. Either you're a alcoholic or you're a normal drinker. And where was the invitation between? And so what was really helpful for me to change my drinking was to recognize like, oh, this is on a spectrum. And now the medical community sees it that way. Alcohol use disorder on a spectrum from mild to moderate to severe. And that anyone can have a problem with drinking. And also like, you don't have to call yourself an alcoholic. And that for me was a sticking point. And I just couldn't, I could not do that. And I still don't do that. And people can call themselves whatever they want. I call myself an alcohol free badass.
But that's part of just like taking the power back. But I think my sticking point was always comparing myself to this other.
Even if it wasn't true. It was just this perception in the movies, in books of what someone who had a drinking problem looked like. And that kept me stuck. I think that keeps a lot of people stuck. So that was difficult for me. So being able also to Just take some of the morality out of it.
And then the God part, which you kind of addressed. Because I'm agnostic, I would say, and I just had a hard time, like with all the God language that is written in the book and you kind of retool that to your own liking. I think some of the other stuff. And I'll let you respond, that'll be interesting. Some of the other stuff I just found really harsh. Kind of like I had so much shame and negative self talk. And so with the 12 steps, a lot of it I can see like the brutal honesty of it, but I also see a lot of like the stick part of it, like making, you know, writing out all your character defects, going through all of your shortcomings, all the things that, all the harms you've done to other people, making a list, you know, that inventory every night of, of everything you did wrong. And I can see the honesty of it, but I can also see that being harmful to some people who don't have that compassionate component, who haven't gotten to the point where they can see the additional side of it. And again, it's not black and white. And you're, you know, to your point, like, it has helped so many people. It's so helpful to have this. But just curious, like your response to that, that.
[00:20:32] Speaker B: Yeah, that's just not my experience of it. What you're describing.
[00:20:35] Speaker A: Yeah. Tell me about yours.
[00:20:37] Speaker B: Well, I'm a. Listen, I'm a therapist. And so, and not only am I an Episcopal priest, but someone who has long studied Tibetan Buddhism and meditation practice. And my gosh, you know, between the teachings of Jesus and Buddha, there's so much, so many teachings about compassion. It's like it could, you know, and so for me, and my experience in AA has been very compassionate. And in fact, when we write out, you know, just doing a daily self examination, we also write out our assets and the things we did. Right. That's how I was taught, you know what I'm saying? And when I was taught to look at my character defects or what I would call character defenses, I was also told that I needed to write down all my incredible assets. You know, so there was, for me, it was a balanced experience. And there's just. There's no one right way to do the steps. I mean, there just isn't, you know, you. I don't care. Like there's even the steps, there are suggested ways to do them, but I've seen people go through the steps in countless numbers of ways. Right. So it's not like there's a core curriculum that everybody does. It's the exact same thing every time. And, you know, if you end up with a sponsor who's kind of a hard ass and is like, you know, kind of as a, you know, tyrant. Get another one.
Yeah, just fire them. You know, that happens all the time. Find somebody that is more aligned with your temperament and beliefs and, you know, run with that. You know, it's a very free system that way. And so I guess we've just had very different experiences of it. And I know tons of people in meetings who often say, I got a real problem with the God thing. And it's like, that's welcome in the room. You know, that's a, that's a welcome commentary in the room. Not. No one runs over and says, well, you got to get over that problem. You know what I mean? Like, I've never seen anyone ever do that, right? So, you know, people come in where they're at, they're accepted where they're at, and I don't know, it's possible that you had some experiences that were negative. And, you know, for that, I guess I'm sorry, because it's actually not been my experience.
And in the book, I don't talk about the steps in that way. You know what I mean? Actually, the book is kind of funny. I mean, it has.
[00:23:07] Speaker A: You're very funny. A great storyteller. Yeah.
[00:23:11] Speaker B: So my approach to the steps are it's filled with joy and it's filled with hope, and it's filled with. Yeah, like, you do have to get honest. But if you come to my office as a therapist, I'm going to ask you to get honest. Right? Otherwise we're just not going to get to the bottom of things. You know, I had a friend of mine whose first sponsor always said, said to him, look, look, here's your job for the first year. Don't drink and don't lie.
Right? Because human beings have a remarkable capacity for self deception. I mean, they just do. You know, that's not a moral judgment, it's just the truth, right? Like, you know, we can deceive ourselves pretty quickly and all you have to do is talk to an alcoholic about all the excuses they had for not stopping. Right? I mean, it's the list of self deception gets really interesting, right?
You know, I used to say, you know, oh, I'll be happy to stop drinking as long as it's next Tuesday. You know what I mean? Or, you know, Flag Day, I think I'll stop On Flag Day, you know, it's like what, like, what are you talking about? It's like, you know, so yeah, honesty is a, should be a part of every human life, not just people in recovery. Right. We should be people pursuing self understanding. That's true. But we should always do it with a non blaming, compassionate gaze.
Right. So we hold those things in tension.
[00:24:37] Speaker A: And let's talk about then the, the things that are helpful. And thank you for addressing my skeptical side of things. But what do you think is most helpful about the 12 steps? Biggest lessons, things that you could impart useful to anyone whether you have a drinking problem or not?
[00:24:58] Speaker B: Yeah, well, here's what. And actually the book is not just for people with drinking problems. Like the book is really about how the 12 steps can be a useful tool of transformation for anybody, right? From the well adjusted to the down and out as it says in the subtitle. Right. And I think one of the things that is helpful for human beings is to have a, well, what the old monastics, right. Monks and like a thousand years ago we used to call a rule of life. Right. And a rule of life, the word rule isn't rules in the original language it would have been the word for trellis. So it's almost like to have something in your life, some kind of structure or design on which flowers can grow. Right. Like just like on a trellis can, like the vines can go up and growth can happen, but you need some, some structure in place to help that happen. Right. And I sort of see the 12 steps like that, you know, when you. If I were to break them down, you could probably do it in three ways. One is steps one through three are about reestablishing or establishing a relationship with a higher power. So it's the spiritual life, right. So mending that relationship, then 4 through 7 is about mending your relationship with yourself. 8 and 9 is about mending relationships with others. And 10 through 12 is developing a lifestyle that supports health and growth in each of those very important domains of your life going forward. Right. That's kind of it. Like it's not rocket science, you know, which is why in those rooms of recovery, you hear people say, you know, it's a simple program for complicated people.
And it is, it's pretty simple, Right. I didn't say it was easy, I'm just saying it's simple. Right?
[00:27:02] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:27:03] Speaker B: And so I like the fact that it covers many domains, important domains in people's lives, relationships. Because when you think about it all, you know, here's how I would define addiction. Right. Like, it is a compulsive.
Let me get this right. So I don't go out on a limb. How would I describe addiction? It is a unhealthy, compulsive relationship with a person, a behavior or a substance that has mood altering effects and negative consequences.
Right. So that, That's a pretty good definition of addiction, I think. Right. And the key word in that is probably the word relationship. Right. Like, it's a relationship. This is why we. We often grieve when we give up alcohol. Right. It's like, my best friend, I just lost my best friend. Right. And in a way, that relationship. We have to broaden the scope of relationships to mend other relationships so that we can live in community with other people and not rely on a substance to like. Like to stop relying on an external solution to internal problems.
Yeah. And I think it's one lens, it's one way to do it, and it's proven effective for lots of people.
[00:28:30] Speaker A: Yeah. I've also heard addiction described as compulsive comfort seeking.
[00:28:38] Speaker B: I think that's true, but I think it's probably too narrow because I think it's a lot more than that. Right. It's. I think that's a piece of the puzzle, but it's. It's not the whole thing.
[00:28:54] Speaker A: Well, one of the things you talk about is like, how everyone's on this addiction continuum, especially in modern society.
Can you speak more to that?
[00:29:05] Speaker B: Yeah, I think everybody's an addict.
I mean, seriously, just look, go back to my definition. Do you know anybody that doesn't have an unhealthy compulsive relationship with a person or a substance or a behavior that has mood altering effects and negative consequences? I mean, you could be a soccer mom or dad sitting at the kitchen counter drinking two bottles of wine at night while making Mac and cheese for the kids. Okay. Or you could just be a compulsive people pleaser. You could be a compulsive workaholic. You could have gang gambling, sports betting problems. You could have, you know, I mean, in the book, actually, I have a long paragraph that sort of describes all the. I mean, there are gajillions of different things. And we'll have to use your word that we turn to compulsively for comfort, for consolation, for, you know, to.
To kind of quiet the discontent and dis. Ease that I think all human beings have at their baseline. You know what I mean? Like, everybody has existential dis. Ease at their baseline, even on their best days. It's there, right? And sometimes the volume is way turned up on it. Sometimes it's turned down. But we all have fixes, hence the name of the book, right? The fix. It's like we all go looking for fixes to solve inner problems. The problem is when you look to an external solution to an internal problem, eventually that the external solution becomes a bigger problem than the one it was trying to solve, right? So let's just say you're somebody who feels uncomfortable around people. You have a little social anxiety. You're somebody that always feels kind of awkward around people, don't know what to say. And then all of a sudden, you just discover alcohol. And the next thing you know, you're the life of the party, and you're like, oh, my gosh, I have found the elixir. I have found the meaning of life. Now I fit in. I feel like I belong. I no longer have this sense of being different and set apart from other people. That wall of separation just evaporates when I drink. And you're like, and for a while, it's awesome, right? It does. It works. It's a charm. And then eventually, suddenly, you know, you get a couple of DUIs and. Or, you know, you. You start, you know, throwing up in your host sink at the dinner party, and now you've got a bigger problem than the one it was trying to solve.
And I just don't know anybody who doesn't have negative behaviors that are compulsive that they really can't stop on their own anymore that the 12 steps can help them address.
[00:31:49] Speaker A: Do you think, like, if we go way back in time to, like, cavemen?
Well, do you think they had addictions?
[00:31:58] Speaker B: Yeah, I just think it's. Listen, the way your brain is wired, your. Your brain is kind of wired for addiction. It just is. Right. I'm not going to go into all the studies on dopamine and, you know, you know, reward centers, pleasure centers. People seek pleasure. Right? It's just. Right. We are averse to pain and we're drawn to pleasure. And for reasons I don't understand, you know, in. When it comes to alcohol and drugs, there are certain people that when they flip that switch, they just can't shut it off.
They just can't shut it off. Right. Something has to happen to interrupt the circuit on that behavior. Right. It's. Otherwise it's just going to loop and loop and loop. Right. So, you know, did cavemen. Yeah, I think so. I don't know. I don't know what their thing was, but you know, we have brains that are inclined, that are inclined toward addictive behaviors.
[00:33:01] Speaker A: Yeah, I agree. I always say, like, we're hardwired to move towards pleasure and away from pain in the quickest way possible. Every organism, even little amoebas.
[00:33:13] Speaker B: Yep. And I know some people who can, you know, have a couple of glasses of wine and, and they're done, you know, and then there are other people that once they, once they let that train go out of the station, there's no stopping it, you know, And I, I don't understand the reason for that, you know, and I've talked to geneticists, I've talked to scientists. You know, at the moment, we just kind of speculate about it. But the good news is, is there is a solution.
[00:33:44] Speaker A: Do you. Did you think it was easier or different or harder to quit drinking versus drugs or. And when you were using drugs, did you ever think about going back to drinking? Like, can you share some of your experience?
[00:33:58] Speaker B: Yeah, it's so strange. I did not think about going back to drinking, and I didn't because I was, you know, this is how self deceptive the mind can be. Right. Like, the mind unconsciously protects using the substance. Right. And it will come up with, it will do crazy acrobatics to justify what it's doing. Right. So for a long time it was like, well, I'm not drinking.
You know what I'm saying? It's like, well, I'm not drinking.
[00:34:24] Speaker A: I get that.
[00:34:25] Speaker B: So. And then, you know, again, it's like it took a minute, it took a hot minute before I. And I had to bottom out before I realized, oh, this is as big a problem as the last one I had. It's just, you know, different day, different substance.
[00:34:41] Speaker A: And was, was it, what was the experience like, quitting drinking versus drugs?
[00:34:48] Speaker B: Quitting drinking was easier for me, I have to say that, you know, my time in treatment, I, you know, the weekend detox was pretty dang unpleasant and I didn't have that experience with alcohol. You know, like, for whatever reason, I, that desire for alcohol as I went into the program was, was expelled. You know, like, it just, I just didn't, I just didn't want to drink again. You know, why that's true? I don't know. It's like, you know, there's so many mysteries on this journey that I, you know, I sort of scratch my head. I remember early on thinking to myself, why did I become, you know, my dad was an alcoholic. He died from it. And, you know, why do some people get fine sobriety and some don't. I don't know. You know what I mean? Like, I can't answer that question.
Why did I become an alcoholic? Was it trauma? Was it this? Was that. I don't know. Like. Like, it could be a. All I know is that here we are and so what do we do now? You know? And yeah, I've heard many different takes. I will say isn't interesting though, that one. One thing I hear so often when you are hearing people share their stories is that they had this internal sense that they were separate from other people. They were different. They didn't quite fit in. They felt a little bit like a broken crayon, you know, and everybody else was kind of whole. And so I hear that a lot, right. And that. That was my experience, you know? Like, I think I, I, from an early age, I had this feeling like there was something broken in my essential makeup that. And. Or something missing in my essential makeup that. That everybody else seemed to have, but I didn't. Right. And when I drank and when I took drugs, that sense went away.
And. And I, I hear variants of that story all the ding dang time, you know, or like I mentioned earlier, you know, alcohol and drugs were. Acted like social lubricants so that I could function initially. I was functioning better in the world. I felt happier. I felt more myself, I felt more alive. I felt interesting. I felt, you know, things that I, I had never felt before. And I just didn't ever want that to go away.
[00:37:13] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. I think that that core human need to belong, that belonging, it is so strong that we'll do whatever we can.
[00:37:25] Speaker B: To fit in, you know, and, and in a way, you're. What you're describing is relationship, right? Like you're, You're. You're going back to addictions, right? Like, you have to solve the relationship problem.
I think in sobriety, right? Like, I think it's very hard to have healthy emotional. Well, I'll use Bill's term, right? Like emotional sobriety, apart from being in a community of support and love, you know, like. Like at least early on, you know, like, because you're. You've lost a very important relationship and you need to replace it with healthy relationships. So I. The lone wolf thing, like, I've never. Well, rarely do I see it end well, you know what I mean? Because now you're just somebody operating. You know, you still have a problem, but now you have no solution at all. Now you're just walking around with a problem.
And so what the steps were always teaching Was that you had to replace that with something else, that relationship with something else. Because if you didn't, you were still just walking around with the same underlying causes and conditions that got you there in the first place.
[00:38:38] Speaker A: What do you think about, like, this new. We call it, like, modern recovery, sober, curious movement. Since you've been in the game for a long time, what do you think about it?
[00:38:49] Speaker B: I think it's great. Why not?
And I have nothing against people who drink. I have nothing against alcohol. You know, it's just not for me. Right. Like. Like, it's just not something I can do. It's like a diabetic pride. I don't think diabetics hate sugar. You know what I mean? It's like, nope, just can't do it. You know, other people who can. Great. You know, eat away, eat away, drink away. You know, it's like, I'm. I'm fine. No judgment. So. And I think people who listen, you know, our culture actually encourages it. Markets addictions, you know, like. And in the fix in the book, I mentioned that I saw a lady pushing a baby in a stroller one day and the baby had a T shirt on that said, I'm the reason mommy drinks wine. You know what I mean? And I thought, well, that's crazy, right?
And, you know, marketers know how to target people, right? Like, let's talk about. We haven't even touched technology addictions yet. You know what I mean? Like, and part of that is our own problem, and part of it is that we are up against companies that want to make sure that we get addicted to what they're doing. You know, as one friend of mine used to say, look, if you're not addicted now, you're just one click away. You know, it's like, it's not hard in this culture. So they want to. I hate to put it this way, that I don't want to talk about this, like, I've got a conspiracy theory, but, I mean, it's pretty obvious, right, that there's nothing better if you're selling something than to hook the consumer on it, you know? So whether that's.
So here's the interesting thing, right?
Have you ever seen an advertisement, a beer advertisement, where someone is sitting alone in a room watching Netflix with a six pack of beer next to them, you know what I'm saying? By themselves with the. With the curtains drawn, which is what a lot of people do, right? They just sit at home, right? Right.
[00:40:52] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:40:53] Speaker B: And. And no, you always see them out with other people making memories Right. Because they want you to equate drinking with not only a good time, but being with other people. Like, you know, so there's a lot of really nefarious but intelligent ways that addictions are marketed to us, you know?
[00:41:16] Speaker A: Yeah. Marketing is fascinating. Just the psychology behind it. It is scary, too. Yeah, yeah.
[00:41:25] Speaker B: We are easily manipulated.
[00:41:27] Speaker A: We are. We definitely are.
Well, then why did you decide to write the Fix?
[00:41:36] Speaker B: You know, I've written a bunch of other books, and I usually have a moment, you know, where I'm like, the hair in the back of my neck stands up, I get a lump in my throat about some topic, and I'm like, I got to write about this. Right? Because, like, my life mission is basically introducing people to ideas and experiences that deepen and improve their lives. And what I wanted to say to people was, look, you know, you don't have to self identify as an alcoholic or an addict to benefit from practicing the steps. Like, and here's what they're about. And so the book is an invitation. It, it, it. And it's like I said, you know, I also realized that, you know, a lot of books on recovery are pretty dang glum. You know, they're. They're like, oh, man, oh, man, this is tough sledding. You know, when you're, like, reading it. And I'm like, I really wanted to write one that was enjoyable to read, that when you read it, there was a smile on your face a lot of the time, and where, yeah, it was not pablum, you know, it wasn't like, you know, soft selling it, but at the same time was saying, look, you know, there's a lot of joy in this journey, and so there should be laughter involved. And so I wanted it to be a book that was unique in that way in the market that was very invitational and very kind and funny.
[00:42:58] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, you're definitely funny. Well, what's your advice to someone who's listening and they're stuck and their thing is drinking?
[00:43:08] Speaker B: Yeah, well, the first thing, actually, I just met with a person yesterday that, through another friend, said, hey, I need to talk to somebody, and this person's on fire.
Their life's on fire, and they are. They're stuck.
So, you know, the first thing. And I can only speak out of my experience, right? Like, so for me, finding a community of support and care.
Now, obviously, if you're really on fire, you might need treatment, you know, because maybe that detoxing yourself is medically unsafe, you know, or just, you know, you. You're. You need to dedicate some meaningful time to focusing on this problem. You know, you can't. So there, there are people in that category, myself being one of them. Right. And then, you know, for other people who are sober, curious, you know, who maybe a mild, you know, maybe on the mild end of the spectrum, you know, like find a community. And I can only say for me, find a design for living that will replace the relationship you have with your substance or behavior with a relationship, with relationships that are healthy and life giving. And obviously I'm a therapist, so I'm a big believer in finding outside help in addition to being part of a community and having a design for living. Like the steps to try and listen, you know, I would just tell people like, don't, you know, there's an old adage and it's taken from I think George Herbert or I can't remember who it was, William James. A lot of people practice contempt prior to investigation, right? It's like, oh, I'm not going to go to that thing because I'm not one of those people, you know what I mean? And that's just contempt before investigation. It's close mindedness and it's like, well, have you tried? Do you know anything about it? How do you know? Maybe it would help, maybe it would work and if it doesn't, well, it was a low cost pro. What did it cost you? Nothing, right? Like you don't even have to put a buck in the basket. You can just sit there and not put any money in it. You can. No one's going to like, you know, get on your case if you don't. So at least you know, take a look at solutions that others have found and see if they fit and if they don't, move on to another one, you know. But I would say that be honest. Like be honest, look at your life through clear eyes and as best you can and ask yourself the question, is the solution I have found causing me more problems now than this problem it was trying to solve? And if the answer is yes, then don't delay, do something about it.
[00:45:58] Speaker A: Thank you, thank you for that. Thank you for writing the book, for coming on the show, for being open and curious. And I think that is a good point. Just to be curious and open minded and everyone has like some kind of combination, some secret sauce to help them. And you know what might help me? A mom who drank too much mom from the suburbs in Boise, Idaho, you know, might not be helpful for Ian in Nashville, Tennessee. So I do like to showcase like different viewpoints different tools so that you can find your magic recipe.
[00:46:40] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. And there are treatment programs, you know, that are not 12 step based. So if it's not your thing, go check it out. I mean, like, I don't really care how people get sober, you know, or get clean, you know, as long as they do. And as long as, you know, in my mind that they're really addressing the underlying causes and conditions, because otherwise you just come out and find something else. You know what I mean? Like, it's, it's just our nature. Like I, you know, I meet young guys all the time, you know, they, they come out of treatment, the next thing you know they're going to the gym four hours a day. And they're big, they're getting huge. You know, it's like they've just sort of found a new addiction, a new obsession, a new fixation. It's like, well, it's better than the last one. So I don't really complain, but I'm just saying I hope that while they're doing that, they're also working this out with a therapist and others who are saying, so what's, really, what is it that you're hoping these addictive behaviors will solve? Like, what, what? And is there a, is there a healthier way to live in relationship with yourself, with and with others and with the world that would render these behaviors or substances unnecessary?
And then the honesty, yeah, the honesty is pretty important. But, but again, in the context of loving relationship, right, like, because, you know, to have somebody else in your life, whether it's a sponsor or a group or whatever, like, is kind of important because they, they can see things we can't, you know, and they've been through it themselves, right? So they can spot the BS and when, when we're in, in self deception mode, you know. You know, I said earlier, you know, I'm happy to stop drinking out as long as it's next Tuesday. You know, that kind of thinking, you know, I have and I mentioned him in the fix, right? My sponsor, Steve, who's like a really funny guy and he says stuff to me all the time that drops on me like a pallet of bricks, you know, where I'm like, what? Like I'm a trained therapist. I'm trained in lots of, in theology. I'm trained in lots of like people helping stuff. He says stuff to me all the time. I'm like, where did you get that? You know, like one time I called him because I was really scared about a conversation I had to have. With somebody, you know, and he's from east Tennessee. He's got this really thick draw, you know, and he's like, he says, well, he said, what would you do if you weren't afraid?
And I remember thinking like, that's one of those questions. You just threw me back on my heels, you know, what would you do if you weren't afraid? And I was like, well, I would do acts. He goes, great, call me back in two hours, go do that and see how it goes, you know. And so there's a lot of wisdom in community and with other people that can really help you begin to examine the unconscious negative beliefs and patterns you have in your life that you just can't do on your own. You really need, you really need help to do that.
[00:49:52] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. Well, thank you, Ian, for coming on the show, for sharing your wisdom, for being open with me today. How can people find you?
[00:50:04] Speaker B: Yeah. So the book is called the fix how the 12 steps offer a surprising path of transformation for the well adjusted, the down and out and everyone in between.
And it's available. I'm not sure when this show drops, but today is the 30th of October, so it's available for pre order right now on Amazon. It drops officially on January 28th. If people go to Ian Morgan Cron I A N M O R G A N c r o n.com getyourdownload. They'll actually, if they just show that they have pre ordered the book, they get the first chapter right away just to check it out in preparation for getting the book on January 28th. And they can follow me. All my social handles are at ianmorgancron and yeah, that's, that's the way to get to find me.
[00:50:54] Speaker A: Awesome. Thank you. Good luck with everything. Thank you so much.
[00:50:59] Speaker B: Yeah, this was fun. Thank you.
[00:51:02] Speaker A: Thank you so much for listening to this episode of the Alcohol Tipping Point podcast. Please share and review the show so you can help other people too. I want you to know I'm always here for you. So please reach out and talk to me on Instagram alcoholtippingpoint and check out my website, alcoholtippingpoint.com for free resources and help. No matter where you are on your drinking journey, I want to encourage you to just keep practicing, keep going. I promise you are not alone and you are worth it. Every day you practice not drinking is a day you can learn from. I hope you can use these tips we talked about for the rest of your week and until then, talk to you next time.
