Episode Transcript
[00:00:02] Speaker A: Welcome to the Alcohol Tipping Point podcast. I'm your host, Deb Maisner. I'm a registered nurse, health coach, and alcohol free badass. I have found that there's more than one way to address drinking. If you've ever asked yourself if drinking is taking more than it's giving, or if you've found that you're drinking more than usual, you may have reached your own alcohol tipping point. The alcohol tipping point is a podcast for you to find tips, tools, and thoughts to change your drinking. Whether you're ready to quit forever or a week, this is the place for you. You are not stuck and you can change. Let's get started.
Welcome back to the Alcohol Tipping Point podcast. I am so excited to have Ally Shapiro back on the show. You may remember her from episode 152. It was called making truths with food and drinking.
I will make sure that I link to it. But it was such a meaningful conversation for me and others as well because I know in this sober world, sober curiosity world, there is so much overlap between over drinking and overeating and so many food issues that a lot of people have.
People with food issues, I'm just going to save myself with food issues, also having drinking issues. And so that was such a meaningful conversation. Allie. And for those that don't know, Allie is the host of the top ranked podcast, Insatiable. She's also a holistic nutritionist. She's an integrated health coach. She's a rebel with a serious cause. I love that. And she is going to be offering a new program that I'm going to be a participant in. I'm ready to do this.
This is a twelve week group program. And I love groups, y'all. I love being in a group.
And it's the why am I eating this now? Group program. I'll make sure to give you more details. But what I found is, like, there are a lot of people out there who have maybe found sobriety, quit drinking, then. Then they're ready to tackle food issues. Or maybe you quit drinking and you developed a killer sugar habit. Whatever your reason is, like, like, if you are ready to tackle food issues, this is the person I trust, Ally, and this is the person I am honored to do this with. So thank you, Allie.
[00:02:42] Speaker B: Oh, thank you, Deb. I appreciate your heart and your willingness. And that episode landed with so many people because we coached, right. We got to really make some important connections on that invisible thread of belonging that food is really about and alcohol is about, right. And so after you stop drinking and it's changing, I love following your Instagram account, because I'm like, oh, my God, your dad's now, right? It's like, we could. A lot of the people that you work with, they have to be like, I'm going to go first. And the culture is starting to change. I thought of you. One of the concerts, concert venues here, they are now having a sober section for people. And I was like, people like Deb or why this is happening, right? But you still lose a lot of belonging when you quit drinking, right? And so then it would be natural that you then turn to food, which food has, from birth, been about belonging, because as babies, we have two needs, right? We need to be touched and fed, and that's how we grow into kids and adults, right? And again, of course, we have more needs, but food is just primarily about belonging and the safety of that, so. And we always. We have to eat, right? We can't stop eating, so.
[00:04:05] Speaker A: Which makes it the hardest thing to tackle. So I was always trying to tackle food and drinking at the same time. And I was not successful in changing my drinking, and I. And, like, leaving it for good until I could untie the two. And because for me, it was like, oh, I'm going to take a break from alcohol, 30 days, you know, and lose some weight. Like, that was one of my top reasons to quit drinking was to lose weight. And. And I had to finally let that go because I. It was becoming. It was contributing to my triggers to drink, and it was. It was too hard, and so I felt too much deprivation.
And so I kind of then went the opposite way where I once I gave up drinking food then kind of became, for me, like, its new reward, you know? And, like, I fuck this. I can eat whatever I want. I don't drink, you know, like. And so I have been sober well over four and a half years, and I am at a place now where I'm like, you know, some of your health, some of your eating. I'm talking to myself, Debbie. Some of your eating is not healthy right now. And I can see myself, like, starting to binge, binge at night. We have, like, this bag of frozen chocolate chips, a Kirkland bag of frozen chocolate chips.
And I was just, like, reaching in there. Just mindlessly reaching in there.
And so when you were offering this class and reached out to me about this group program, I was like, oh, my gosh, I'm ready. I feel ready. And so, yeah, so it's the why am I eating this now? Group program?
And I don't even. Honestly, I'm not even sure what it totally is. I'm just like, Allie's doing it. I trust her.
Some of the stuff you had talked about, like, this is the emotional stuff, right? This is. This is good stuff and life skill stuff. So. Yeah.
[00:06:19] Speaker B: Well, first of all, you said, you're right. You can't do two things at once. And it's. So. I'm glad you said this is. This is ideally for people who are already sober or like, or not. Not trying to tackle sobriety and food at the same time, because you're. It's impossible. And then we take it personally. Right. Which is, I think what you were saying when it was like, well, I'm going to quit drinking to lose weight.
Weight loss is often, like, shame based motivation. It doesn't. And you can. You can turn that around. But it's often driven by one of the main triggers of that drives our emotional eating, which is inadequacy. Right. Which often when we're losing weight, it's from a panicked place. It's not from a, how can I do this the healthy way and really support my body and, like, do this sustainably? So why am I eating? This now is really about taking this big concept of belonging that is a primal need. It's a human need. And being like, okay, but what do I do with that, right? How do I actually make progress on that in my life? And what do you even mean by belonging? And because as for me, someone who always identified as, like, hyper independent, I don't need anyone. I don't need a group. And now I'm like, you. I'm like, oh, my God. Groups are where the magic is, right? But I was like, I'm independent, you know, I don't need belonging. And it's like, no, belonging is literally, like, one of the most important needs. It's why shame, it feels so, so painful and why we often eat to numb out that pain. Because we need each other. We can't survive by ourselves. And so why am I doing this now is like, let's make this practical. So if you don't mind, could we look at maybe what was going on when you first quit drinking? And you were like, I deserve this. And maybe it was another type of rebellion. And one of the. What we first start out with and why I'm writing this now is we identified the four triggers that generate our emotional food noise. So Bethany Frankel, do you remember her from, like.
[00:08:30] Speaker A: Yeah. Skinny, shrill margarita. Real housewives. Absolutely.
[00:08:35] Speaker B: So I used to call this mental food gymnastics, and she called it food noise. And now, like, the New York Times has talked about it, so now we're all calling it food noise. But there's one of the biggest drivers of food noise. There's. There's. There's a couple drivers, but is emotional food noise. And so there's four triggers. And this is what we go over and why I'm writing this now, that drive emotional food noise. And so for listeners and for you, we'll coach through this next time you start thinking about food. When you're going through for those Costco chocolate chips at night or you quit drinking and you say, I deserve this, you want to ask yourself, what's at the tail end of my food noise? And tail is t a I lhen the first one is tired. Okay, am I feeling tired?
The second trigger is, am I feeling anxious?
And anxious is often about uncertainty, when we feel out of control from the outside world. So when drinking and emotional eating exploded was during COVID right. It was like, what the hell is happening? How long is this happening? What is going on? How long are my kids out of school? Why is daycare closed again? Or for me, I was like, why can't I even get into daycare? So that's anxious.
I is inadequate, which is often, again, when shame based motivation is for weight loss, is driven inadequacy, is really when the uncertainty comes from the inside, from its self doubt. Why do I feel not enough or too much? Right?
And then the last one is loneliness.
And loneliness is really, if you find yourself, like, I'll give you some client examples. One of my clients and why made this now was like, I'll be with my husband and kids, and everyone's on my last nerve, and then I just go into the pantry, close the door, eat chocolate chips. Chocolate chips are very accessible. Or I I'm going out to eat, and I feel so high maintenance by what I need to order because I'm gluten free or because I need extra protein or whatever it is that I'm just like, oh, I'm just going to go with the flow. And that loneliness is really about shame. Like, I'm wrong for what I need or I'm wrong for what I'm doing. And that's when we feel really separate. So those. If we think of those two triggers when you were first getting. When you were first sober, which requires a ton of energy, right? When it's new, right? It's a ton of uncertainty. I don't drink anymore. Like, it's a new identity, right?
So I'm not going to tell you what trigger it was. But when you were having that food noise, that was out of alignment with your goals. Right. Of, like, I just. I. Like, I'm not drinking. I can eat whatever I want. What was actually coming up internally with you, not what was happening on the outside of, like, I'm newly sober, and now I want to eat. But can you think back to.
And if that's too hard, we can also go to the Costco chips. It's up to you.
[00:11:50] Speaker A: Well, I'm. I'm like, a little. I'm like, would it be.
And then you'll relate it to the tale.
[00:11:58] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Let's talk it through.
[00:12:04] Speaker A: I think it must have been part of the inadequacy and kind of overcompensating, being overconfident in myself. Like, you can eat this.
You deserve to have this, because it kind of bucks against how I had viewed food traditionally or in the past. Like, it's so interesting because when I was drinking, I was eating much healthier, except for sometimes at night with my drunk night binges. But I was eating much healthier, exercising more. I was so almost punishing myself for my drinking through food and exercise that when I stopped drinking, that was a whole shift in my whole belief about food and how I should fuel myself and what I could or couldn't have, because the only thing off limits was alcohol and everything else was okay. And that made me feel more freedom and made me feel less deprived of.
[00:13:24] Speaker B: Mm hmm. Mm hmm. So how does feeling. How does feeling deprived, what does that trigger in you?
[00:13:33] Speaker A: I think it's like a yearning, a wanting, and sometimes resentment.
So I think I was resenting that other people were allowed, quote unquote, to drink, and I couldn't. So I'm gonna allow myself to eat and not judge myself for it, which also just. It got so it got complicated. But, yeah, food stuff. Let me just say, like, drinking stuff. Drinking, stopping drinking is way easier than food stuff because you don't need alcohol to live. Right. But you need to eat.
[00:14:14] Speaker B: Right. But what I think you're talking about, and this is kind of what we get into more in the program. But when you're first sober, does feeling sober feel as restrictive now as it did four and a half years ago?
[00:14:29] Speaker A: No, not at all.
[00:14:31] Speaker B: Right. So restriction and feeling deprived is actually a moving target. Right. Often in the food space, it's like, oh, if you restrict on food, you're going to binge. And it's like, well, there's also emotional restriction. And I was telling my why am I doing this now? Group? I said, you know, how I eat now would have felt restrictive to me ten years ago, but it doesn't feel restrictive at all because I've worked on these other tail triggers so that I feel more in choice in my life, because restriction is ultimately sum total of how in choice we feel. Right. So when you felt in choice about alcohol, the food was easy, easier. You were eating healthier.
[00:15:14] Speaker A: Yes, I was controlling that. Because I couldn't control the alcohol.
[00:15:19] Speaker B: Yes. However, though, and again, control kind of gets a bad rap these days, because we don't want. I'm not about diet, culture, or anything, but you were more in choice overall in your life. We can call it control. But you were like, I'm choosing to eat this way. Right, but. But I. But I have the freedom to drink. Right, so you used for your personal set point of choice. There was enough choice that food was easier. I'm not saying it was. There's. There's much more ease possible. But at that moment. So when I heard. What I heard you say was there was resentment. Right? Which, like, why do I have to do this, right? So that resentment, do you think that was inadequate? Like, why am I singled out of that? I can't drink.
[00:16:05] Speaker A: It's the aloneness. It's feeling so alone.
[00:16:10] Speaker B: Yeah.
Yeah. So it's probably the loneliness trigger, right?
Because, again, even though we know it's counterculture, I mean, it's culture is more and more embracing sobriety, it's still very counterculture, right.
To not drink.
[00:16:31] Speaker A: Yeah. I feel it's definitely connected to that loneliness, that separateness, the shame that was associated with drinking.
[00:16:45] Speaker B: Yes. Yeah. And when the drinking goes away. Right. You now have to deal with what was. What it was covering up and shame around body and food. And if we've. I mean, my clients come to this, you know, they're like, I've tried everything, allie, you're my last resort. And I'm like, good. You're going to be open to something different. I mean, they think it's like the end of the road, but I think it's the new beginning. And. And we were joking before you got on about, you know, you're trying noom, and you're like, I don't hate it yet. You're like, I'm not like, fuck it yet. You know, and I'm like, oh, my clients are already at noob, you know, so the loneliness, that was the trigger. That is the trigger that. And it's a sense of separateness. And I. And I want to explain to people that loneliness and that sense of shame means other people can be around us, but our social needs aren't being met. And when we're in shame to preserve our belonging, we bury the very parts of ourselves that would enable us to feel connected, to feel that we aren't so separate. Right? And when you were talking about groups being so powerful, right? You leading your. I have, like, chills, deb. Like, you're doing the spiritual work of turning pain into power. I just, like, have chills about it. You've created your own community, and that's part of what's made sobriety easier, because that loneliness trigger that sense of shame about it.
You're helping others. You're turning all that pain into something productive. So the shame starts to dissolve, right? Because it's like, each time you can say it, it's like, oh, it's not just me. Oh, it's not me. And there's purpose to this, right?
[00:18:30] Speaker A: Yeah, I'm getting goosebumps now, too, I think. And we talk about it a lot in our group meetings. And it is, you know, AA does get poo pooed a lot, but it is the power of community and connection and having other people see you, because so many people don't talk about their drinking or even eating like that. That's why that episode that I did with you, where you coached me, and I was really starting to talk about my eating issues. Like, I don't really talk about it. And we've, like, hidden this part of ourselves that we've felt so ashamed of. And so when you finally, like, bring it to life, it's like, oh, maybe that monster is so scary. Maybe I'm not so bad. Maybe I am worthy of more. And these other people see me and hear me, and I'm seeing and hearing them, and, yeah, it's so helpful to have connection.
[00:19:32] Speaker B: It is. And I want to distinguish connection or connection from belonging because I'll give you an example of a client who was in. Why I'm in this now was sober, and she would go to the sober meetings at the time. This was, like, six or seven years ago when there weren't quite as many options, right. And I don't. I don't know exactly what kind of group she was going to.
As she had this loneliness trigger, she knew she needed to attend these meetings. But she's like, when I sit there, I feel so alone, because people, I don't talk about how hard I'm struggling with my parenting or how much I'm struggling with my food so we can be in community with other people. But if we're not bringing the parts of ourselves, the belonging and a big piece of belonging that we need to work through, and we help people do this. And why I'm doing this now is significance. Feeling like my needs matter, that I matter. And. But shame is like, oh, my God, this food thing that I'm so struggling with. Like, I used to think, again, this was 20 years ago, social media. There was no body positivity. There's no. We didn't even have the words diet culture. I was like, I'm the only one struggling with this. Like, I'm the one with the crazy food issues, right? And it was like, oh, after the fourth session with my clients, they're talking about their, you know, their crazy food issues, too, right? And so when you talk about, you know, kind of the top of the conversation, we were talking about groups. I used to kind of be like, eh, groups, you know, like, eh. And I, even in my marketing, attract bad joiners. Like, I say that, like, if you're a bad joiner. But part of that, I realize, is our own wounding from struggling with food and being ashamed for it or being bullied in our past, right? But part of why I mostly only run groups now is because people are, like, this sense of belonging to work through this stuff, which is what you're giving people for alcohol is life changing. It just melts shame in ways that reading books can't do, that noom can't do. I mean, even online, like, really being in community and bringing those parts of, like, I'm struggling with this trigger and why am I feeling so alone? Why do I have shame about this and other people being like, you're not alone.
The group I say is half the medicine. Yeah, it's great content. And you're going to get deep transformation. And that can't be uncoupled from doing it in a group where there's safety and all that stuff. So you're giving that to people for alcohol, and it's really, really important. And again, we're both in America. I have clients who are a lot of clients in Canada and the UK and Australia, and they come from, you know, more western culture, but we're taught, like, individualism and self reliance, and we should be able to do this alone. Right? That was me. I was like, I'm smart. I've overcome cancer. I've healed my gut. Why can't I do this, right? And I thought the solution was to, like, just work harder when really it was like, no, you need to be seen and you need to be supported, and you need to be resourced in your struggle instead of restricting yourself. Because in general, with all of these triggers, the strategy we have is restriction, emotional restriction. Right? So if I'm feeling ashamed of this, I'm not telling anyone. I'm going to restrict the very support I need because of shame or with the tire trigger, people think, oh, if I work harder at food, working hard has gotten me everything in life, right? Or has gotten me far in life, so let me work harder at food. So clients think, oh, if I read more about nutrition, if I read more about. If I. You know, it's like, if I think more about food, if I. If I create an epic shopping list and an epic meal plan. But the research shows that actually, the more we think about food and our weight, the less we do. Because what ends up happening is we get exhausted from it, right? It's like we're very busy, but that doesn't lead to better food choices. Like, I barely think about food. In fact, we actually need to, like, meal plan more. But it's like, the less I think about it, the easier it is because I'm not exhausting myself from it. But part of how we work through the tire trigger is we need rest. But how many of us restrict ourselves with rest? No. Gotta be more productive. Got to get three more things done, you know? So we use this overall strategy of restriction around these triggers that then just makes us use them more and more instead of what you've done with alcohol. Right. And why it doesn't feel so restrictive anymore is you've gotten more and more of your needs met around it. You have community around it. You have better language to talk about it. You probably don't feel like you need to explain yourself so much right now. You have your dad who's curious about it. Right? Like, all of this stuff. But do you see how you've actually gotten more and more of your needs met around it, so it feels less restrictive.
[00:24:49] Speaker A: Yeah. And so how do we do that with food?
[00:24:53] Speaker B: Yes, yes, yes. Okay.
[00:24:55] Speaker A: And also relating so much to when you're like, it's the whole tired of thinking about it, too, and burning, about burning out on it. And just the. Then you go like, fuck it. Then you get the case of the buckets. And people do that with drinking. You know, they just get like, I'm so tired of thinking about it.
Just, I need relief. A lot of it is looking for relief, 100, 100%.
[00:25:24] Speaker B: So the way that you do that is so with each trigger again, tired, anxious, inadequate and loneliness. And this is what we get in, into the second module of why am I doing this? Now is what you have to do is start maturing into a adult sense of belonging. So when we're kids, belonging is all about will you like me? So you will take care of me, right? Like, you know, I don't know if I asked you on our first interview, but it's like what age were you actually self sufficient? Like for me it was like almost 22 when I got a job out of college, right? I mean, I like, I mean, I worked at a bagel shop, I worked at restaurants. I've had jobs since I was twelve. But that was not covering the bills, right?
So developmentally, and that's what my background is in the first 2025 years of our life is like, how do I get people to think I'm good and how do I get people to like me? Because you want your caretakers to like you so that they take care of you. Then as we develop and we start to need to separate from our parents, we need our peers to like us. And all of this is important because you don't want to come out and start your life on your own and be like, I have no moral code, right? Like, I can speed through stoplights, I can, you know, it's okay to be lazy. Like, none of this stuff is bad that we've learned.
However, the problem is, is that often the way that we've tried to look good is unsustainable, right? So if we look at the tired trigger and we'll use that because this is one that I've been working on the past three years as we, before we started, I told you three years ago, I tackled my overworking issue with my same process because I don't turn to food anymore and overworking with my last addiction.
And so if we. So I struggled with my weight since I've been eleven. I was a late bloomer. I was never. So I was like, how am I going to look good to people? You know, I'm overweight, I'm a late, I'm not that attractive. You know, I didn't feel like I was. But I'm smart. I knew I was smart, right? So I was like, I'm going to work hard at that and I'm going to get, I'm going to get good grades. And I did. I went to the honors College of Penn State undergrad. I went to an Ivy League master's degree, right? It was like I'm putting all my eggs in this belonging basket is to work hard, right.
And that's why I thought if I worked hard at exercise and food, it would lead to weight loss. When I found it was, it was working smart, not hard, and it was often about rest. So this tire trigger, for me, it's like, oh, when I'm feeling tired, I need to rest. I can't rest.
I have to work hard. Do you see how that's, like, I have to be productive. So the first thing is realizing that, oh, for me, especially, like, told you the last three years I was working on this, is realizing that we have needs that we need to do, not behaviors. So, for example, I thought in the last three years I was going through menopause the same time I was postpartum, went through early menopause because of the chemo, most likely. And I thought, I need more sleep. This is the behavior and habit I have to focus on. But the problem was that I had a newborn who didn't sleep through the night until he was two, even though we tried gentle sleep training, and it never lasted. Right. So that was out of my control. And I had perimenopausal insomnia that took me two years to figure out. Oh, your nutrition needs have changed. Oh, you're stress dominant. You need to walk more. Like, it took me a while, right? What I realized, though, if I look at the need for rest, there's seven different types of rest.
So I started small, right? It was like, okay, one of the types of rest is physical rest, and it's not sleep. They're sleeping. And napping is part of this, but there's actually active physical rest that helps with flexibility and moving your joints. So walking, I always dismissed it as, like, who? I mean, walking, you know, it's like, oh, I actually, I'm actually stagnant from sitting at my desk. And when I walk, I actually get energy back, right? So. And it was like, oh. And then when I was working with a sleep coach, she's like, that walking is going to help you sleep because you're bringing your cortisol down. So it's like, okay, I'm going to walk for ten minutes. I mean, we walk my son to daycare. I'm going to walk after lunch. I'm going to walk to get my son to daycare. Wouldn't, you know, I connected it to sleeping better, but also having more energy during the day. So we have to start realizing that what we need to do is focus on our needs and saying, I'm a grown ass adult. I'm self employed. I'm like, the hardest boss I've ever had, right. And realizing, like, okay, you've been rewarded for working hard, but you're 44 years old now. You've been working out your career for, what, 17 years, professionally and academically.
Give yourself permission to rest, you know? And so that's. That's the work. And what you do is you experiment. Everything's an experiment which takes the pressure off of it, right. Because when we think, I have to do this, we get into a very perfectionist mindset, right? But when we take an experimental approach, it's like, oh, the stakes are low. Let me see what happens to. And so over time, I really started to connecting. Oh, when I rest, when I'm taking those walks, I'm actually getting really good ideas. Oh, what am I missing when I think I have to work hard all the time versus pace myself? And the solution is not that I don't work hard anymore, it's when do I have to work hard instead of working hard being my default. Does that make sense? Like, you know, this summer, I take Fridays off in the summer. Nobody wants to work on their food issues in the summer, right? It's like, you know, it's like, you can work. But now I have a launch coming up, okay. I'm probably going to be working five days a week again, but. So it's having the flexibility instead of being all or nothing, right? With, like, you know, in coaching, we say when you have a hammer, everything looks like a nail. So it's like, instead of thinking you have to work hard all the time for success, it's like, when can you slow down and that actually helps you, or when does rest actually help you? So I just talked a lot.
But does that kind of give you the general orientation of how we start to belong to ourselves as adults? And when those needs get met, we stop turning to food and we stop giving it a job that it could never fully fulfill. Adequately fulfill.
[00:32:09] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, it's fascinating focusing on needs, not behaviors. And I want to get more into that, but I was kind of laughing because my. That per. That permission to rest, it's okay to rest, and we need it. And I was thinking, you know, as you were talking, I'm like, we are animals. And I look at the animals around me.
They do a lot of sleeping. They do a lot of resting. They do. They're not asking permission. But I was also laughing because my sister literally called me today. She's like, I need to talk to to you. Hope she. She's listening to this. I love you, but she's like, I just need to talk this out. I need permission to take the day off. She's like, I'm not, she's not. She wasn't feeling well. She had a work event, but she was having, like, so much guilt and so much, like, I feel like I should be going. I should. I'm like, you feel like you're coming down with something? Okay, to rest, you can rest. But she felt like she needed to get permission to rest. And she's a grown ass adult, but I totally get it. I get it.
[00:33:23] Speaker B: Well, and I say that jokingly because so much of my work is we all think we're logical human beings, but all of our logic is formed by emotion, and it's formed by what was I rewarded for? What was I docked for, right? What was I penalized for? What was I, what was I rewarded for? That's what it comes down to. And we do in the fourth module, the fourth lesson of why minding this now, we go through sort of the three, the protective resistance to change, right? Why did your sister and I, why do we struggle with rest? Well, we are rooted in a culture that is built on scarcity, right? So this isn't a defect of us, right? And so we get into the program more about how to see what's driving that protective resistance to change. And for example, even though we. There is real scarcity, there's also perceived scarcity, right? Because a lot of us, for me, for example, I had no idea what is enough, what is enough work, what is enough success, what is enough money, right? Like, it was just like, oh, my God, when we're off in the tired trigger is driven by, I just need to do more. I just need to restrict more. I just need to work out more. I just need to study more nutrition. I just need to work harder. I just need to make more money. I just, I need to be more of a parent. More and more, more, more.
And that's the part that we, we have power over. Like, do I really need more? Because, like, so far, more has not been enough. Like, you know what I mean? It's like, yes, yeah, so that's. But. But you have to be able to have compassion and create safety for yourself to even look at the self. And I bring in culture, you know, like, capitalism is rooted in scarcity. So you realize, like, okay, these are big systemic forces, and I can still opt out of them in ways that that makes sense for me in my individual situation, because we're all different. Right? Like, half my clients are entrepreneurs, half aren't, half work in the corporate world, or they're leaders in higher ed or they're therapists. You know what I mean? It's like everyone has a different situation. But that's why our focusing on needs over behaviors is so important. Because also, I mean, do you want to go into needs versus behaviors? Because I.
[00:35:39] Speaker A: Well, I also just want to point something out to people who come from the drinking world. Like, I. So the tale, the tired, anxious, inadequate loneliness is very similar to the halt acronym of when you're having a drinking craving, which is the hungry, anxious, lonely, tired. However, like, you take it to a much deeper level than kind of addressing your physiological needs. Like, you're addressing your emotional needs. So, yeah, I think this could segue into needs.
[00:36:20] Speaker B: Yeah. And, well, I love that you brought up halt because that's often used in emotional eating circles. Like, are you hungry? Right? And that's, if you're hungry, you gotta eat. Right? And that's. That is often driven by blood sugar. That's out of the scope of biology. Yeah, by biology. And then I think it's angry, lonely, tired.
And what I find about halt is that they miss the anxious and the inadequacy. And that, for what I've seen with my clients, are often the biggest drivers.
[00:36:53] Speaker A: Yeah, I agree.
[00:36:54] Speaker B: So it's. There is tiredness for sure, and even within the different types of rest. And this is not my work. It's. Oh, my God, I'm forgetting her name right now. She has a great TED talk, the seven types of rest. But there's emotional rest, which is not people pleasing. Right. So when you look at needs versus behaviors, you get much more into the emotional aspect of why we turn to food, which again, at its core is this invisible thread of belonging. But once you see it, you can't unsee it. And that's why people say, why am I doing this now? They're like, I have made connections that have been elusive for years. Like, like, these are smart people, these are working hard people. And it's like, oh, but I couldn't see it until I did. So, yeah. So let's focus on needs versus behaviors, because my master's degree is also in change, how adults change. I didn't study more about nutrition, so I think a lot of how we talk about habit change is expecting that we can control our environment. Right. Habit hacking and habit stacking. Oh, do squats while you brush your teeth and take your thyroid meds. It's like, okay, I'm trying to brush my teeth, and my son just told me he has diet. Like, he just pooped his pants, you know, I like, well, you should say.
[00:38:13] Speaker A: How old your son is. I have teenagers, so you should clarify.
[00:38:20] Speaker B: Oh, my God, I hope he. Oh, my God. One day he might be like, you said that about me.
Or it's just like, you know, he didn't sleep well that night. Or like. Or danger calls.
[00:38:32] Speaker A: Life is happening around you. Yeah, yeah.
[00:38:34] Speaker B: And I use the care, I use the childcare example because whether you're a parent, you have a pet, you're caring for age, parents, you're a caregiver, like, you're a nurse, or like, you are like, people in caregiving roles do not have predictable life circumstances. You just. You just don't, right. And even if you don't have caregiving, responsible responsibilities. Right. I think some of the uncertainty during COVID was supply chain. I had one client, we hadn't worked together in a couple of years. But she grew up very, very poor with food insecurity. And she scheduled like, a spot session with me. She's like, because all of a sudden I am, like, overeating again. And I know it's emotional. And we just needed. Because she had worked with me, she knew all of this stuff. She just needed some clarity. And she's like, oh, my God, it's the scarcity. Like, she didn't realize that it was her past food scarcity issues when she didn't have enough food as a kid coming up again. But once she knew what it was, she knew how to solve for it, right? But it was just like, oh, my God. My anxiety management system, which we all have, is on alert because there's food scarcity, right? So I use supply chain as, like, there's a lot of external events that I think of the climate change, right. Or climate collapse or whatever you want to call it. I mean, so I had one client, she's like, oh, my God, all our power went out in a tornado. I'm calling from my car because I didn't want to miss the call.
Like, people's lives are just changing a lot these days, I guess, is what I'm. What I'm trying to say. Right.
[00:40:09] Speaker A: Oh, my gosh. Yeah. I just was thinking, you know, I have a no politics kind of rule. I'm trying to be considerate of other people's viewpoints. However, like you said, these. There is such a thing as, like, climate anxiety. I was just reading about someone who was getting treated for it and then, you know, people this fall, I was just thinking what a good time to do this because there is a lot of anxiety around elections, no matter what side you're on. But, yeah. So your external environment and the things out of your control. Okay, I'm sorry. Carry on.
[00:40:48] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. So, yeah. That's all to set up that. The problem with a lot of habit change is it depends on predictable, predictable circumstances, right. And even things like in the food space, you know, it's like, look at the menu before you go out to eat, right? My clients have tried that. It's like. But then they get there and they hear a special that's like. Or they're unaware of their social anxiety and all their friends are ordering something else, and they're not aware that. They're not aware yet that it's this inadequacy. And their thoughts are like, I want what I want. But what, when we dig deeper, it's like, what do you really want? It's like, oh, I want to eat well so I can sleep well. And what I really want is to feel connected here and that I have significance rather than using food as the way that I'm the same, right. And that I belong. So with these triggers, this is a long way of saying we focus, we use needs, because so much of this work is about being flexible, but it's also about being present to what's actually happening and what you have available versus reacting to the past. So if we take the tired trigger, right? And I'm sitting here and I'm feeling a little tired, right? And it's like, I can't take a nap, right? I can't do this. Oh, my God. I have seven choices of what to do here to give me some energy so that I am not tired. And then, because the irony for me is what? The more tired I get, get, it feels like a threat. And so I try to work harder. So it's like, oh, if I. If I can give myself or someone wants to eat, right, this is me in the overworking, but eat, it's like, okay, maybe I need some creative rest, right? I'm gonna go. And nature is part of creative rest. I'm gonna go take a walk in the woods. And that's what I needed to not eat at 02:00. Right? At 03:00 so it's what's accessible, right. Rather than, oh, my God, you have to do this then, because that brings its own exhaustion, right? Like, that's. The irony is often how we're change triggers, the very triggers that are causing us to eat. Right. Because a lot of my clients are perfectionists. And it's like, okay, I got to do the plan perfectly. And I'm like, there's no plan here. It's like you tuning in and feeling like, again, belonging to yourself. Because it's not what Allie tells you to do. It's what do you feel you need? And how can I repair that self trust of this inner battle? Because the battle is actually not about food. It's about your inner battle of getting your needs met, your sister calling you, and being like, I need permission to not go to work today. Right.
That is an internal battle, and it just. We turn to food because it stimulates attachment chemicals. It stimulates that we belong, that we're going to be taken care of. Right. But it can't give us the actual deeper need that we have to feel rested, to feel refuge in uncertainty, to feel connection and support when we don't feel enough, and to feel like we have significance when we're in shame.
Does that sort of.
[00:44:10] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. I mean, and. And how many needs are there?
And. And the other thing I was thinking some people, you said there's a lot of perfectionists. There's also a lot of people pleasers, and some for I am one.
But where to the point where you don't know what your own needs are because you're so focused on meeting the needs of everyone around you and making sure everything's running smooth around you that sometimes you're like, I don't even know what I need.
[00:44:43] Speaker B: Yeah. And that's what we teach, and that's actually a lot of what I teach and why I'm writing this now. Because most people don't know and because of developmentally, the only reason you would tune inwards is if you have what they call in developmental psychology, optimal conflict, you know, which is alcohol, which is food, which is shopping. The only, like, over drinking, overeating, overshop, you know, overspending. The only reason you would ever start to develop this internal lens of belonging is if you had something that bothered you enough.
So I just share that because the default developmentally for is to just keep saying, what does everyone else want? Everyone else want? And part of I work with a lot of women, 35 and over. Those are most of my clients, really, 40. And overdose is because at midlife, it's like, this isn't. I'm doing all of this, and it's not working for me. Right. There's also that. That motivation of, like, something's got to shift if this second half of my life is going to be sustainable, fulfilling and on my terms. So I kind of went off on a philosophical thing, but so it's learning. So in the second module, I give a list for each trigger, I give a list of various needs you can pick from, depending on. But for example, like with the uncertainty trigger, right. One of the ways I used to binge was during what as a cancer survivor, we call it scanxiety season, which is when you are going into your scans. And because our medical system is so broken, by the time you schedule the appointment, go for the exam, get the results, see your oncologist, it could be two months, right? And I used to binge on sugar during those times. And it's because I felt completely out of control and I thought what I needed was a clear scan and I did need that. But what I actually needed to get through that time when it was so scary. Right. And again, as time has gone on and I've learned is I needed refuge, I needed support, kind of like a safe harbor amongst the anxiety that just was not going to move. And so for me, I used to, because I didn't want to be a burden, you know, my parents would call because I lived in Philadelphia and I'm from Pittsburgh. I mean, I live in Pittsburgh now, but they would be like, how are you doing? And I'd be like, I'm fine, but I had to practice saying, I'm really scared. Like, I still get emotional now because I, for a long time and I've done this work because this is my work. I really felt like I was a huge burden to my family at that age. I, like, still get teary about it, but really feeling. I mean, my parents were city school teachers. You know, it's like they, it was, they had, we had to have relatives take me for treat. I mean, it was a, it was a lot on my family.
And so to have, you're like leaning in, I can tell you, because you.
[00:47:30] Speaker A: You, for people that aren't familiar, you got diagnosed with cancer at a young age.
[00:47:36] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:47:37] Speaker A: How old were you? 13.
[00:47:39] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And developmentally, when we're young, we make everything about us, right. So it's like, oh, my God, this whole thing is my fault. I'm the burden versus it being a burdensome experience. And so sharing with them, I'm scared.
And in my mind I was like, you should be over this. You're ten years out of this. And it's like, yeah, but you have had no emotional healing.
No one. I'm the first generation of childhood cancer survivors. So there was no understanding of what it did to my gut, what it did to my endocrine system. Like, I have been figuring this out as I go, but I was really hard on myself. Right. It was like, oh, my. But what I started to realize is this was protective resistance to the vulnerability of being like, hey, this is really scary. And my sister and boyfriend, now husband, also lived in Philadelphia, and it was asking them, will you come to the appointment with me? I know it's a pain in the ass. No one wants to go to. To the hospital to sit with someone while they get an MRI, but they did. Right? And so I needed to be resourced, not necessarily have the outcome that I wanted. And then once I got that support, I was then able to view food as, how can I eat? To reduce my anxiety instead of adding to it. But first I needed to feel the support and the resourcefulness, and then food became a tool to actually support me. Keep your blood sugar balance so your anxiety is lower. And then as I did that more and more, now it, you know, and again, time is also on my side. I'm now 33 years out, so. And the peak window for secondary cancers is over, you know, so there's a lot that goes into it. But what really started it was, oh, you need to be resourced instead of restricting yourself and trying to do this all emotionally. Restricting yourself and trying to feel like you need to be in control for you to not turn to sugar. So those are examples of how we have to mature and grow into what will actually, you know, give us more. I don't. More satisfaction, less restriction emotionally.
[00:49:52] Speaker A: Yeah. I appreciate this so much because I was just thinking, like, that's probably the, like, it's not about the food. Right, right.
[00:50:01] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:50:03] Speaker A: We'Re digging deep here. I'm just digging.
[00:50:06] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. But I had no idea what my needs were. That's what I think. I went off on a tangent until I was able to really sit with, oh, first name that I was feeling uncertain. Right. So. And, you know, I have a masterclass that hopefully, if people are interested in this, I'll help you figure out what are your main triggers? Because even having that clarity creates some safety, creates some distance. And then part of the work that we get into is, like, how can you pause to, like, sit with the feeling? And then the need often unfurls from that. Right. So that's a lot of the work as well. But I give people a menu to start with, and then as they start.
[00:50:55] Speaker A: You definitely provide some education.
[00:50:58] Speaker B: Yeah, no, I provide. Like, what I found has worked, what the research shows, what my client shows, and tons of examples so that you can, in the beginning, start to experiment with this. So you have ideas to pull from. Yes. I'm not just like, hey, go get your needs met.
Yeah.
[00:51:16] Speaker A: But even, like, you know, like, would I. Well, let me ask you this. Like, who. Who do you think this program is for, and what do you want them to get out of it? Because a lot of food related programs are weight loss focused. Right. And I'm just gonna be honest. I do have a goal of losing weight.
[00:51:40] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:51:41] Speaker A: In a safe, healthy way, because I'm recognizing the patterns that I've developed. Like, are contributing to some. Some extra cushion.
[00:51:52] Speaker B: You don't have to justify it to me.
[00:51:56] Speaker A: I mean, that's. Let's be honest. Like, most people would love to lose weight. They're still tied to that.
[00:52:03] Speaker B: Yeah. This is unpopular to say, but, you know, one year postpartum from going through menopause and being postpartum, I was 30 pounds above my pre pregnancy weight, and that was not acceptable to me. For me. I also had plantar flasciitis. I wasn't sleeping. I was in body pain. I've lost about 30 pounds over three and a half years. It's taken some time because I had to figure out what the root issues were and all this stuff, and I wasn't even overeating or anything. It was just menopausal changes and postpartum. And I am one of the.
I joke that moderation is the new radical. But I'm not in the anti diet camp. I'm not in the diet camp. And I think both of those camps rest on the binary, is weight loss is damaging, right. Weight loss, diet culture, is weight loss at any cost, and thinness equals your worth. So I understand anti diet culture, which is your weight, isn't your worth for sure, and thinness not at any cost. But I'm saying there's a third way, which is what if weight loss, if that's your goal, and we'll get back to who this is for. But I do want to address this. If weight loss is your goal, can it actually improve your relationship to yourself?
And for me, why I even created this body of work was I found that was the only way to do it and to do it sustainably. And that requires understanding that, like, my 30 pounds postpartum, about 15 pounds of that was inflammatory and health concerns that was driving the weight.
My blood sugar was all over the place. I was stressed out of my mind, being a new parent in a pandemic, going through menopause, like, so my weight was an invitation into looking at, for me, this overworking issue. Right. And so I feel great having lost this weight. And I also knew doing it because I had done my truth, you know, I'd done my work previously, that nothing in my life was going to change. Like, I don't wait on my weight. So that's part of this as well, of not tying it to your worth. Right. So it's been able to be a casual process. It's been able to be sustainable. So I just want to say, I'm with you in wanting to lose weight. I get it. I'm like a couple pounds away from my pre pregnancy weight, and I feel really good and I'm proud of myself, but I don't think it means anything about me and I don't think it means about anything about anyone, whether they want to lose weight or nothing. So I'm one of the places that I think it's like, all are welcome if we don't really talk about weight loss. But it does come up when people feel they're struggling. Right, perhaps. But if people, some of my clients, I would say about half my, maybe 25% of my clients are at the weight that they want, but they feel they can't sustain it. Right. And they're worried about gaining weight. And then the other 75%, usually maybe another 25%, are like, it's not about weight loss. I just need to change my relationship to food. And then I'd say probably another 50% want to lose weight, but do it in a healthy, sustainable way, and that's okay. Weight is really controversial these days, and I think the pendulum has swung too far. But because weight isn't about willpower and discipline, at least in my view, it can be about underlying health concerns. It can be about unaddressed stress. It can be psychosomatic from trauma. I mean, there's so many reasons that weight can be on, but this will address the emotional component, which I find is about 80% for most people because it's stress, it's why we turn to food, all that stuff. So does that answer the question of who it's for, or did I just.
[00:55:44] Speaker A: Kind of say, well, I. And I. That's why I love you and your, like, nuanced approach. And you recognize, like, that there is a third door. Right. And it's kind of how I take the drinking approach, too. Like, I will help you drink less or not at all, but it's not.
It's about the other issues that, you know, it's about having compassion and kindness for yourself to take care of yourself. And, and it's about health, too. Your point? Like, for me, like, I'm like, oh, my cholesterol has bumped up, and I noticed my blood pressure has been a little higher, and I have migraines, and I know that that can be tied to weight. So, like, I have some additional health concerns related to taking care of my body. Like you said, we're in this second or third acts of our life, and it's like, how do I want to really have a healthy relationship with food, enjoy it, and, and be, and just be a better me and be as healthy as I can be? Like, I didn't just give up drinking to make my other health go in the shitter.
Right? Like, it's, it's a holistic approach that you do. And I think a lot of this digging deep is what a lot of people are looking for. For sure.
[00:57:07] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, I always say there's, like, no white knuckling around, like, required of the food. And people are like, this is like, they say it's uncomfortable. It's uncomfortable in the most freeing way. Like, at first it's like, oh, I got to ask somebody for help. And then it's like, oh, the relief. And I don't. And you're not going to tell me a plan of do or do not eat? You're not going to tell me I have to drink a drink water, jump on a trampoline, like, have a five step morning routine. And I'm like, no, I want food to be at the back of your life and you're, and you becoming more self aware. I have a woman, Andrea Nakayama. She works with people who have chronic illness, but she says my self care is being self aware. And I'm like, that is what. Why am I eating? This now is all about, it's, again, bubble baths and all that stuff are great, but this is like, what are my patterns? Including you mentioned the people pleasing. We get into that in module four. That's the accommodator pattern of, okay, now that I'm starting to understand my needs, I feel bad. I feel guilty having my needs met. And we'll, and we work through that part as well. So it's, I got you.
[00:58:15] Speaker A: I am so excited. Yeah. I just want to invite people if they're looking to dig deeper, if they want help. I want to be part of a group program. I will be there with you rooting you on, holding your hand. Like, we are all in this together. I'm a excited to be a participant in a program.
Yeah. I'm so excited to have you, Allie. And this is just like, this is what I need. This is my next step. And for people who are curious and they want to learn more or how learn more about your program or what's next, how to sign up, do you have any information they can go to? I know you're kind of in the middle of changing things up, too.
[00:58:58] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's gonna be really exciting. I mean, yeah, I'm changing the curriculum to incorporate new research, new things I'm seeing for the word climate came to mind. But like, most people's lives are changing a lot these days, right. So there's. It's all new content refreshed. It's rooted in the same principles. Right. I always say evidence based, client proven, but, yeah. So we talked about the four triggers today. So people really want to understand the one that's derailing them or I derailing the most. Come to my masterclass on September 12, I'm sorry, September 10, from twelve to 115 eastern standard time. And the master class is untangle your food triggers, catch yourself before you fall off track. And I'm going to take everyone through a coaching exercise that everyone who goes to it, well, not everyone, but most of the feedback is like, this was eye opening, this was surprising. And what I love is that a lot of people walk away being like, well, I'm doing pretty good considering how often I'm triggered. I'm not eating as much emotionally as I thought I would be.
So it starts to repair some of that self trust, but that can be a great class to come see the type of community that I have. The best women who value depth, curiosity, they're also healthy skeptics. You know, I like those people are like, what you talking about with us? You know, and see if you resonate with me if it lands for you. But the. We will do a very. I'll go through the triggers. I'll talk about why they're connected to food and belonging a little bit more, but mostly get people to see what's really up for them. So I know in a lot of these masterclasses, people do a lot of selling. That's not my style. You're going to get a ton of value, and you can learn more about the program there and then for your community, if they use the word deb at checkout, they can save $100. So, yeah, I think that's the info, right?
[01:01:00] Speaker A: Yeah. I'll be sure to put it in the podcast notes, too.
And your website is. Remind us again, where did they sign up?
[01:01:10] Speaker B: I'll put the link in the alley and it'll be the main page, the masterclass signup and why I'm writing this now live group program. Oh, perfect. We'll be there. Yeah.
[01:01:21] Speaker A: Okay, so it's allyshapiro.com. if you sign up, use Deb d e B. I'm going to be your friend. I'm going to be in there with you in this program.
And. Yeah. Anything else you want to share before we wrap up?
[01:01:37] Speaker B: Yeah, I think one of the things I just want to say is because we do go deeper and you know, I have my program truths with food that goes much deeper. So if people are like, I don't know if I want to open this, like hornet's nest. This is, this is like entry level, like think appetizer.
And a lot of people who take this program, they're like, this fixed everything. Like not fix them, it fixed the underlying issue. No one needs to be fixed, even our as. I'll talk about why I'm writing this now. One of the big things we, we help do is get you to see why you're eating makes sense, why it's not a problem, but why it makes sense. And that really just shifts your relationship to yourself. I love that you brought that up, because how we change matters as much as what we're doing. And if we don't learn, like you, you, I love that you take this approach to alcohol. I, you know, when you first start the program, you're still going to emotionally eat. And I'm going to be like, great. That's research. And how we learn to treat ourselves and realize that we can learn from this rather than feel shame for not getting it right is really important. So. But I just want to let everyone know that this is an amazing group. It's fun. You're going to get, we're not going to go to the depths. It may unlock some stuff, but it's going to be really actionable, practical stuff that over twelve weeks is going to radically shift how you see yourself and how you eat.
[01:03:00] Speaker A: So, yeah, I'm so excited. Thank you. Thank you so much. I would love to see all in there. So thank you, Allie.
[01:03:10] Speaker B: Thank you, Deb.
[01:03:13] Speaker A: Thank you so much for listening to this episode of the Alcohol Tipping Point podcast. Please share and review the show so you can help other people, too. I want you to know I'm always here for you. So please reach out and talk to me on Instagram at alcoholtippingpoint and check out my website alcoholtippingpoint.com for free resources and help. No matter where you are on your drinking journey, I want to encourage you to just keep practicing. Keep going. I promise you are not alone and you are worth it. Every day you practice not drinking is a day you can learn from. I hope you can use these tips we talked about for the rest of your week and until then, talk to you next time.
