Episode Transcript
Pod 78 Martin shame and guilt
Deb: Welcome back to the alcohol tipping point podcast. I am your host, Deb Masner. I am a registered nurse health coach and alcohol free badass. And today returning on the show is Martin Lockett. He was a favorite guest of ours. He was on episode 69. If you wanna listen to his story again, Martin is a trained counselor. He has his master's in psychology. He has a powerful story about serving 18 years in prison for a DUI that took the lives of two people.
And he shares that story, like I said, in episode 69, but the reason why I wanted to bring Martin back to the show today is because he. Has so much to share about navigating those feelings of guilt and shame and how we can overcome those and the role of forgiveness and the role of labeling and just everything that goes along with that.
So thank you Martin, for coming back again.
Martin: Thank you so much for having me. It is an absolute honor to be here. I loved it the first time around, and I have no doubt that this is gonna be just as enjoyable, if not more.
Deb: Yeah. Well, I mean, it is a really heavy topic though, right? So we're talking about guilt and shame and oftentimes those get confused.
So can you just give a low down between the two.
Martin: Sure. Well, you're very right in saying that oftentimes they get conflated. We often hear people use them interchangeably, guilt and shame, shame and guilt as though they are one and the same. And I think that is because both are, you know, negative feelings, right?
We feel badly about something that we've done. And so we tend to, to, to think that they are the same, but in fact, they are, they are very much. Distinct and different. And, and so here's how I like to explain guilt and shame. So guilt is a healthy way of processing something that we did to offend someone or to cause harm in some way.
Right. And so we feel badly about it. It's deeply rooted in our conscience. Our conscience guides us as to what is right and what is wrong. And so when we. Offend someone or something and, and we feel badly about it. That is guilt. Right. And that should be used to then. Make some corrections in our behavior going forward, make amends where we need to make amends and to hopefully not repeat the same behavior.
Shame on the other hand is guilt. That is Runamok. So shame is when that guilt lingers and, and stays with you and, and becomes deeply entrenched. And it morphs into this overarching character assassination that says you. A bad person. You not only did a bad thing, but you are inherently bad. Right. And, and that you're, you're, you're unworthy or you're unforgivable or you're unlovable.
Right. And it's, it's, it's something that plagues people for years and years and years to come. And they just feel that they cannot move past this one thing. Right. This terrible, terrible offense. And so, you know, there's no, there's no. Good. There is no positive mechanism that comes from shame. It is literally there to beat you over the head and make you feel like the worst person to ever exists.
Guilt on the other hand should be embraced. Guilt is what is going to keep you from continuing to make. Poor decisions, continuing to harm people and, and you know, it, it, it, it helps you to, to learn and to grow and to become the best version of yourself that you can possibly be. But again, without understanding the difference between the two, you see a lot of people allow guilt to morph and to shame.
And so I'll just briefly say for me what that looked. As you alluded to, to my catastrophic crash that, you know led to me doing 17 and a half years, what I was responsible for two human beings lives that I had never met. These are beautiful people and they lost their lives at the hands of my recklessness and alcoholism and, and just sheer stupidity if I'm being blunt.
And so I lived with shame. And guilt, but more shame for the better part of three years at the beginning of my sentence. And what that looked like is every month of, for the month of December for the entire month, because that was when this happened was new year's Eve. I would relive and vivid detail every single aspect of that day.
That led to that fatal crash. And I would not go out to work out. I would not go to eat the meals. I would sit on my bunk all day. I was depressed. I was self-loathing. I was self, you know, you know, in self condemnation. And it was just this miserable, heavy weight that, that stayed with me for the entire month of December, because I felt in a kind of twisted way that this was my way of honoring my victims by not forgetting.
Not allowing myself to forget what happened and vivid detail, but then it finally dawned on me that the energy that I was expanding in this, this, you know, beating myself up and, and allowing this to linger for so long, that was wasted energy, right. That was not me, constructively and productively using my energy.
To, you know, to, to, to, in my case to honor my victim's lives and the work that I had promised that I would do. Right. But, but however, you need to make amends for whatever it is you did, that's where your energy needs to be. And so, again, this is a long winded answer to say that guilt can be your best friend that holds you accountable and it should, and same is always gonna be your worst enemy looking to keep you.
Deb: And so how, how could you overcome those? You know, they're so ingrained. How, how do you overcome.
Martin: So I think it has to start with first identifying the difference between the two and understanding guilt is served for this purpose as used for this purpose. And shame is something that's entirely different.
So understanding the difference between the two and then asking yourself right on a daily basis, how am I using my energy? Am I using my energy to kind of wallow in this, this, this, this pitiful. Right. And I'm carrying this heavy weight with me day after day, and I'm not allowing myself to move forward, or am I using that energy towards something that is positive?
Something that is productive, some, something that is helping me to make amends for whatever it is I've done. Right. And when, and, and when we say making amends, right? If you. Offended someone you feel terrible about it and it's just eating you up, right? The first way to start making amends is to directly apologize, but the amends shouldn't stop there, right?
It should be okay. So you've said, you're sorry. Now show me that. You're sorry. Right? Amends is action. And so again, to illustrate with, with my situation, you know, to honor my victim's lives, I now have dedicated my life to getting the message out there about drinking and driving, right. And helping people who struggle in active addiction.
Because that's what they were doing at the time of their deaths. That is me perpetually making amends and trying to atone the best way I can for what I did now. Obviously a lot of people, you know, most people haven't killed two people in a DUI crash and went to prison, but whatever it is, if you've offended someone in some way, well then maybe you can channel that energy into being of service to someone somewhere else.
Or you can volunteer somewhere or you can just try. Working on yourself and be the opposite of that. So if I've, you know, if I've been a. For, you know, a period of time. And I feel really bad about that first. I should go and apologize to those that I victimized, but then let me do the total opposite and let me, let me be overly, you know, courteous and polite to people, right.
To make amends. And so, again, it's, it's, it is trying to, it's trying to not just, you know, verbalize that, you're sorry you feel bad about it, but you want to put that in, in, in, in an actionable. You know way, right? You wanna make that you wanna make that scene and felt by people. And so understanding the difference between the two and then asking yourself the critical questions.
Okay. So now that I understand the difference between guilt and shame, how am I expending my energy? Is it in a, a, a way that that acknowledges the guilt. And now I'm starting to turn the corner and channel that energy into something that is gonna help me to be better next time. Or am I simply just staying stuck in this miserable, pitiful self-loathing self condemning.
And once you identify the difference between the two and you start to rehandle that energy into something that is productive and that is constructive, and that will, you know, aid you in this, in, in this process of being better. Then I think you, you, you started to figure it out
Deb: as you were talking about that.
I'd I just, I felt like I had a little light bulb because. I was thinking a lot about guilt and shame and how it relates to when you're drinking and you're trying to change your drinking. And so you feel like all this shame that you are a horrible person because you can't quit drinking. And the guilt that you're talking about is more.
Owning that you, yes, you are still drinking, like taking responsibility for it and then doing something about it, taking action, you know, practicing, not drinking whatnot. I, I tell people a lot, like to help overcome these different feelings and I wasn't calling them guilt and shame. But now that I think about it, they really are rooted in that.
I tell people to focus on data, not drama. So data being okay, you drank last night, you ha you know, just being really scientific about it. Yes. You drink, you had four bottles of ethanol containing liquid and that's it right. That's data, but the drama, that's the shame, right? That's where you're laying on.
Oh, I'm a horrible person. I'm never gonna figure this out. I'm a failure. So I'm glad that you talked about that. So that just made me think Martin.
Martin: Okay. Absolutely. That's 100%. Right. And, and we can certainly delve into that a little bit more later, but. You're right. You know, oftentimes when people slip up, whether it be whatever they're trying to do, if they're trying to, to, to lose weight and they they're doing so good on their diet for two weeks straight, and then they, you know, allow themselves to have a donut or a couple cookies, right.
That will turn into this overarching. You know, dark cloud of, oh, you see you just gonna fail every time. You're never gonna get this. Right. You're always gonna, you know, fail. And so why even try, and it's just this self defeating mentality, but there is a place where that comes from. Right. We don't just, we don't just.
We're not born into this, this way of thinking. Right. And so, and so, you know, you talk about, you talk about, and we can, we can get into what we may as well go there now. So the labeling theory, right? Mm-hmm so, so, so the labeling theory is, is rooted in sociology and it came, I think it was, it was instituted back in the sixties or something like that.
And they wanted a broader way to explain bad behavior deviant behavior and what they came up. Was the labeling theory, which, and in, in that context they had, they had related that to institutions. So like the criminal justice system or the school system or the boarding schools, or what have you, these institutions that would label kids who misbehaved right.
Oh, your criminal or your sociopath or your a mystery or a deviant or whatever, they would slap these labels on these kids. And that in turn would reinforce that negative behavior. So essentially it became a self-fulfilling prophecy. So. If, if a kid, you know, is being a kid and they have still a candy bar from the store, right.
They're hungry. They go with their friends, to the store, they steal a candy bar from the store and they come back home and their mom finds out, their dad finds out and they get punished. But then they're also told that they're a thief, right? Not that they stole something and that's wrong. And here's why, but you are a thief, right?
I've slapped this label on. And, and, and so, and so if, if they're told they're thief, then the more they hear that, or they're no good, or they're just like their father, right. Who the mom is not very fond of, or they're just a little thug or whatever it is that they hear in repetition, they start to internalize that and say, you know what?
I must be that. How often do you hear people say, well, if you're gonna accuse me of it, I may as well go out, go, go out and do it. Right? Because there is something in us that says, if this is what. People around me. Think of me. Then I must be that we in large part develop our self concept in the way that we see ourselves, especially as kids by and large, in the way that people respond to us, how they react to us and what they tell us about ourselves.
That's how we come to form an identity and a self concept, which turns into self-esteem, which tells us how we feel about our self-concept and who we are. So by labeling people a certain way, And, and for those of us who are, you know, have struggled with addiction, we're told that we're druggie drug addicts, you know low lives, you know, all these things that are terrible, you know, shaming labels.
We internalize that. Well, now we feel like we have to live that out. So now I have to do all the behavior that goes along with this label. And so again, so, so if, if we come to see ourselves in these, in these negative light, Right. And we don't see ourselves as competent capable people with, with agency and able to, you know actualize certain things in our lives based on our conduct.
If we, if we don't see that as a possibility, because all we're ever gonna be are these labels that we have internalized and accepted, then why would we not feel this overarching shame? The minute we make one mistake, because that one mistake reinforces this label. I've been hearing about myself, my whole.
Right. So I've gotta overcome all of this childhood you know labeling and being told that I'm, I'm all these horrible things. And now I have to, I have to essentially, you know, rid myself of all that as an adult and reframe and reshape the way that I see myself. And that is, that is quite an uphill climb, but it, it, it can be.
It can be done. Let me just, let me just, you know put that, put that out there, but it is a lot to overcome when it's rooted in childhood.
Deb: And I think that, that it kind of, the opposite happens with the labeling and shame too, is that people who have a problem with drinking or addiction don't want to be labeled as an addict or an alcoholic.
And I think that's why it is so important to challenge the stigma and, and what it looks like. You know, that's why like use alcohol use disorder. You're not the condition or the disease or whatever you wanna call it. Like you are a human and maybe you have an issue with this. So I, the labeling can go both ways, right?
Can prevent you from moving on. Absolutely.
Martin: And so if somebody, if somebody tells a lie and we all do, they should not be labeled a liar. They were somebody who told a lie. If somebody struggles with alcohol, then they are a person who struggles with alcohol, but not an alcoholic. Right. And I get at AA and NA meetings, you introduce yourself, I'm I'm set, but you see, that's why so many people have come up with ways to identify themselves.
Other than those, you know, Pejorative there you go. Alcohol free badass. Exactly. When I, when I open up at, at an AA meetings, hi, my name is Martin. I'm a recovery and alcoholic, right? I have to qualify it. I'm recovering. I'm not just an alcoholic, right? Because for a lot of people that is a shame, a shameful and a self shaming label.
Right. If, if, if it's only been used at you. In a negative way, which in most cases it has, oh, you're just an alcoholic. Oh, you're never gonna succeed. Oh, you're just an, oh, you're just a drug addict. You're just an addict. Right? That is a very, that's a very, that's a very that's a very defeat way of looking at yourself.
Right. Because you're more than just that. Right. You're so many other things. And if that's all that people see you as then, that kind of has, it's gonna have a, a, a not so good effect. And so I like that people. Finding their own labels that work for them. Right? Because here's the thing it's much more important.
It becomes much more important. What we tell ourselves about ourselves than what other people tell us about ourselves. Right over time, what we internalize and the messages and the self talk. And so we talk about that when, you know, we try to get people to overcome these horrible feelings. We talk about affirmations and positive self talk and things like that because the messages that you feed yourself over time become, you know, more determin.
In your life than what other people tell you about yourself. And so it kind of takes the opposite effect as you get older, versus when you were a child and everybody shaped who you were then later on in life, we, we kind of shape ourselves based on what we tell ourselves. And so, no, it's a very, very valid point that the labeling can go the opposite direction in a positive way.
When you start to reframe the way that you label people and how you, how you see. Well, that seems
Deb: like a good segue for something else I wanted to talk to you about, which was the power of positive thinking and how we can change our thoughts.
Martin: Right? So during my 17 and a half year prison sentence, you know, it's, it's a lot of people find it difficult to, to have a positive disposition in such a negative environ.
Right. Like how could you possibly, you know, find things to smile about and to laugh about and to be joyful about in such a negative dark environment. And I would say. That it has to start with acceptance. So we're all familiar with the five stages of grief, right. Something really terrible happens. And we go through these, these, these emotional stages before we reach acceptance.
And so what that looks like just briefly for those who might not be as familiar with it as some of us. So it starts off generally with denial. Oh my, this did not happen. This cannot be happening. I refuse to believe that this happened. Right. And then it goes into maybe a stage of anger where you're just totally.
You know, peed off at, at home ever. You might blame God, you might blame your neighbor. You, you, you need somebody to blame. You're so angry that this happened, right. And then it goes into a stage of bargaining. Well, I guess, you know, I guess it could have been worse, you know, I, I guess I have to, you know, be, be, be thankful that it wasn't as, as bad as it could have been, or however you bargain with it, with yourself to mitigate that pain.
And then it goes into a stage of depression, right? And then eventually it finds its way to anger. Now we don't always move through that in a linear fashion from one to the other. Sometimes we, you know, bounce back and forth and for some people they will stay bouncing between those four for years. Before they finally reach the stage of acceptance, but if you're ever going to transform that dark energy that you possess because of what you've done, and you feel terrible about it, if you're ever gonna transform that into positive thinking, you have to reach a level of acceptance.
And then once you reach that level of acceptance, now you have to ask yourself, like I did, when I had gotten sentenced to 17 and a half years, and I accepted the. That I was gonna be in prison for 17 and a half years. And I accepted the fact that I was responsible for two human beings, no longer being here.
I accepted that there was no way I was gonna change either one of those. So now the next question or questions had to be for me. Well, how do I now take this tragedy, this terrible thing that I've done and transform it into something that is purpose. What lessons am I supposed to extract from this terrible, terrible thing that can help me to be the best version of myself that I can be so that I can then help other people to be the best versions of themselves that became the critical focus.
Once I had reached the level of acceptance, but you cannot get to the positive thinking and, and turning something terrible into something positive, unless you come to a level of acceptance first. Right. And so that has to be where everything starts. And again, allow yourself to feel what you need to feel.
Go through every stage of the grief process that you need to go through it three or four times, but make sure that it is, it is leading to. That final stage of acceptance, do not allow yourself to stay stagnant and, and, and, and, and vacillating between the four and never getting to acceptance. That is, that is not gonna help you.
It's not gonna help you be better for yourself or anybody around you. And that is not, that is, here's the thing. I don't think we go through. Terrible things in life because some, you know, greater being or the universe or God, or however you see it is trying to punish us. I don't believe that I don't believe that we go through traumatic circumstances and difficult, you know, trials and, and life just because just for happenstance, I believe that we go through very difficult circumstances in.
So that we can learn critical life lessons that we could not have gotten any other. Because we know adversity breeds that, right? You don't get that from just walking through life and everything is so great. And oh, my life is so beautiful. Aren't I so blessed and lucky we wouldn't learn a thing. Right.
But we go through these trials and these fires so that we can learn critical life lessons that we are to use for ourselves and our, our own enhancement and enrichment so that we can then pass. To the next person, right? This is our kind of our, our, our individual duty to ourselves to learn what we're supposed to learn from that particular situation so that we can then offer our fellow man and one man and humanity, something that is invaluable.
That's what I believe. Right. And so again, we cannot, we cannot and will not get there. However, unless we first reach a level of acceptance. Boom.
Deb: that's so good. Martin. I I'm, I thought of a couple things as you were, were sharing. Well, one immediately, like after you said going through all those things, Has led you to where you are and, and everyone has that sort of journey.
And, and I like the saying, like, things don't happen to you, they happen for you. Right. And then as you were talking about just navigating the, the, the stages of grief, that process. To get to acceptance is like, exactly navigating your relationship with alcohol. You know, you go through denial where you, you, you're just in denial that you even have a problem.
And then you go through bargaining and that's that whole moderation piece, right. right. And then you go through. Sadness like, oh, I really wish I could drink. Why can't I just drink like a normal person, quote unquote, you know? And then the anger too, where you're just, then you're like angry, angry at alcohol and the big alcohol and marketing and then getting to acceptance, like, okay, I accept that.
I have a problem with drinking. Right. I need to do something about it. Like it's not my fault, but is my responsibility. and then just like you said, like, cuz they added that sixth stage to the grief process, which was meaning, so finding, meaning, finding purpose, which you, you have found so beautifully. Do you ever look back on your life and think what if you hadn't have gotten in that accident?
Like does your I'm sure it does. And what do you think
about
Martin: that? I have obviously I've thought about that and what my life would be like today, and I can't help, but to think that the rate that I was going with, my drinking and living recklessly and, you know, just making a lot of bad decisions in my active addiction, I, I can't help, but to think that that my life, first of all, might not even be here, but if it was that it would be in shamble.
Honestly, there was, there was, I'm one of those people that unfortunately I only learned or in those days I would only learn the hard way. Right. I wish I could look at somebody else's bad mistakes and bad behavior and say, man, I know not to do that because I just saw what happened to that person. Right.
I wish I could just learn by observing and, and, and things like that. Not, not me. I was, I was a hard. Learner. And fortunately, I had to learn the hard way. My biggest regret obviously is the fact that for the light bulb to come on in my head, two people had to lose their lives. Right. That's the, that's the, the most regrettable thing.
However, I don't live in shame over that today because that would do me not an ounce of good. So I honor that regretful feeling. By doing the work that I do today to help myself and to help other people. And I'm good with that. Right. But again, again, I didn't get there overnight, but I certainly think about what my life may have been.
And again, I don't, but see, here's the thing I, I try to, I'm also cautious about that because that can also lead into that same component when you constantly are, are trying. You know, relive the past or ask, well, what if, well, only if this would've happened and only if that would've happened again, ask yourself, why are you doing that right now?
If that's to help you to be better today, then by all means, go for it. But if it's, if it's only, you know, if it's only breeding more negative feelings and, and, and regretful feelings, and you know, that can quickly turn, turn in the shame. So you have to be. You know, cognizant as to why you are kind of re-litigating that part of your life and your head ruminating on that.
And I try to be, I try to be cautious about that and not spend too much time in the past. If I'm being honest with you.
Deb: Yeah, I, I think that's a lesson for everyone, no matter what it has happened in the past, like the past is the past and you have no control over it. The only control you have over is the present moment.
That's the power of now and you have influence over the future. So mm-hmm, easier said than done.
Martin: Right. Well, no, but it's a, it's a, it's a daily reminder. Like if you literally have to write it down or put it on your mirror, or, you know, again, repeat it to yourself, you know, three times in the morning, three times in the afternoon, three times in the evening, however, you have to instill that in your brain and it is not that once you have it.
Okay. I have it. I never have to think about it again. You, if you have to do it every day for the rest of your life, then do it. It would, it, it is, it is much better that you would do. Then finding yourself reliving past events that you cannot go back and change only to have them, you know make you feel shameful and, and living, you know, kind of this, this self pity and wallowing and, and self-loathing state, I would much rather have you repeat it a hundred times a day to yourself and go through that than, than, than the.
Deb: And what would you be repeating? What would you be writing down on your notes?
Martin: So for instance, so when it comes to shame and guilt, right? So guilt says what guilt says that I did a bad thing, but shame says I am a bad person. So again, If I had to write it down every day, I did a bad thing, but I'm not a bad person.
Right. I did a bad thing, but I'm, I'm still forgivable. I did a bad thing, but I am still lovable. I did a bad thing, but I am still, you know, like whatever you have to, whatever makes sense to you. But you have to, you have to counter the message has to counter anything that is related to shame. And again, shame is this overarching character assassination about who you are as a person, not about what you did, but who you are as a person.
And that's what you have to, you have to combat right. To prevent feeling shame.
Deb: And so what were some other ways of just using that power of positive thinking? You know, you mentioned coming to acceptance. What, what are some other things?
Martin: So for me, it was always, it was always, you know, thinking what would I want if somebody had done this to my family member, what would I want the outcome to.
Right. And so, and so I try to channel that if I wanted this person who had done this to my family member to, you know learn everything they could about addiction so that they could, you know use that influence with those around them, right. To, to, to speak to first time DUI offenders so that they wouldn't.
You know, turn around and continue to drink and drive to speak to high school kids who are, you know prone to, to, to making those mistakes when they're, you know, trying to figure themselves out. And, and, and if I could prevent that, then I would, I would want that, that person to prevent that going into, you know colleges and speaking to young people who drink, like it's going outta style and try to use my message.
So everything that I would want for that person who had done this. To make amends to me. And my family is what I try to do. Right. That was, that was, that was kind of what guided my steps as to what to do next. And so for everybody that's gonna be different. And so whatever it is that you're, you know, feeling, you know, shame about, you know, if, if, if, if you could do the opposite, right.
If you could do the opposite of. To to so, so they have the miracle question, right? And they say, they say, okay, close your eyes and imagine your life as perfect as it can possibly be. Right. A miracle happened overnight. You woke up, you have this perfect life. What would that look like? And it started to say, oh, well, I'd, you know, I'd live here and I'd, you know, I'd have this job and I'd, you know, have two kids and I'd have a dog and da, okay.
So how about we start putting the building blocks in place? To start working toward those things, right? Like the action has to start somewhere. There has to be a goal, right. Which is kind of the end stage, but then there's gotta be a series of steps that have to be taken along the way to get you there.
So if I have a five year goal, and this is where I wanna be, and this is what I wanna do. Then I need to break that down into one year goals, and then I need to break that down into 12 month goals and then to, you know, weekly goals and then daily goals. And if I can do something today, that gets me a one step closer to that five year goal.
That's often a distance then I'm, I'm right where I need to be. And so for each individual, you know, You have to ask yourself, well, if this was gonna turn out to be perfect from what I've done, I feel terrible about the perfect ending to this story would be what. Okay. And then what is in my power? That's another part of this is understanding what's in our power and what's not some things are just out of our control.
And again, that's where that acceptance comes in. We have to accept that, right. But whatever is in my power to make amends in the best possible way that I can. What can I do today to move one step closer to that? And then you channel your energy into whatever that is.
Deb: Yeah. Really good. Well, how about we talk a little bit about forgiveness and, and how you can move towards forgiveness of yourself and others.
Martin: Right. So forgiveness and unforgiveness, I think is very connected to shame, right? And so forgiveness, self forgiveness. Let's start there for me, cuz I had to, you know, learn to forgive myself, but it, it has to start with kind of. Reframing and reshaping the way that you see yourself. And what that means is you have to start rejecting all the labels that people have placed upon you probably since childhood, right?
You have to start rejecting those things about yourself. Because you're not those things. You've accepted them for many years. That that's, this is who I am and that's all I'm ever gonna be, but that is a lie. So again, you have to deconstruct that framework and how you've come to see yourself and start rejecting those labels and reshaping the way you see yourself.
And you start doing that by saying, okay, I am a human being. I am prone to making mistakes. I have made many mistakes, but I am redeemable. Right. I am. Forgiv. Right. I am worthy. I deserve a second chance and you, and you have to literally stand in the mirror every morning and tell and start your day off with that positive affirmations.
Tell yourself I am worthy. I am lovable and I don't care if you have to say the same five or six things every day for the next 365 days until you actually believe it, then do. Because I'm telling you what you tell yourself becomes more important than what anybody else can tell you about yourself, believe me.
And so once you get there and you get to a place where you understand that you are fallible human being, as we all are, who are going to make mistakes, as we all do and will continue to do, but that you are deserving of forgiveness and it starts with yourself. You deserve to forgive your. Right. So once you reach that place of self forgiveness, then I think it naturally would follow that it becomes easier.
Maybe not easy. That's why easier. I put that emphasis easier to forgive other people for what they've done. Because now understanding that you yourself are a fallible human being. Who's going to make mistakes, but still deserve forgiveness. Then likewise, other people are fallible human beings who are gonna make mistakes, who likewise deserve forgiveness.
Right? So it becomes easier to forgive them. Now, let me say this. If you still find it incredibly difficult as a lot of people do to forgive people because you feel that they inherently deserve forgiveness, then do it for the most selfish reason. You. Which is to not continue to burden yourself with unforgiveness.
So if you have to, and you hear a lot of people say this forgiveness is not for the other person. It's for yourself. And here's, here's, here's where that made the most sense to me. I was in church one day and the pastor had given this, this, this analogy and I'm sure a lot of people have heard it, but he said, unforgiveness is like you drinking poison and expecting the other person to get sick.
It doesn't work that way. They have gone on about their lives. They have probably forgotten all about whatever it is that you haven't forgiven them. Aren't thinking about you in the least. And you're walking around with this bitterness and this grudge and this resentment and this unforgiveness, and it is eating you alive.
You may not feel like it is, but I can promise you physiologically it is taken a toll on your body. And so Ridge yourself of that, not because they deserve it necessarily, if that's the way you feel, then you're entitled to that, but do it for yourself. Do it for yourself. And let me just give a brief illustration as to what that looked like for me again, while I was incarcerated.
So I had a girlfriend, we had been living together for two years and she, you know, when this happened, she, you know, she stuck by my side. She was there to visit me every week and, you know taking care of me and we talked on the phone and she said, Martin, I don't care how much time you get. I'm gonna be by your side, we are gonna do this.
And you know, when you go to prison, Like you are desperate to clinging to whatever it is that is familiar in your life. And obviously your significant other is the most familiar thing. And it is your only source of comfort, your main source of comfort when you are incarcerated. And so, and so it, it was, it was such a relief to know that this woman was gonna be by my side.
Well, that turned into her ending up. Sleeping with a friend of mine. I mean, not just a friend, I grew up next door to this guy. We played little league baseball together. We played basketball together. He was like a brother to me and they had an affair. And when I found out about it, like I was beyond crushed, as you can imagine, I was, I, I couldn't eat for three days.
I just, you know, I still have, you know, a ton of time left and I was thinking this cannot be happening. The two people who were the closest to me betrayed me. And then when I heard that statement from the pastor months later, I said, gosh, I gotta find a way to forgive them. I don't wanna forgive them. They don't deserve it.
How could they do this to me? I, I just can't do it. But then I started when I was taking my courses and I was reading a, a, I was doing a class on sociology, was talking about ways that we be learn things behaviorally by doing things. We learn things. And so. it had talked about just by, you know, kind of fake it till you make it right.
You hear that a lot. Well, even if you don't feel like it just fake it till you make it. And so what that looked like for me was me having a conversation with both of them individually and expressing to them that, that, that I had forgiven them now in my heart. I didn't feel that I had forgiven them. I really didn't, but I told them, I said, I gotta say this just because like, eventually.
Maybe it'll work. So like I told them, I forgave, I had forgiven them and then every day I would repeat to myself, Martin, you forgave them, Martin, you forgave them. Why are you feeling this way? You forgave them already. Right. And eventually it took, I don't know how long it took for it to actually set in, but eventually I really woke up one morning and felt that I had forgiven.
That I was no longer carrying this hatred and this resentment and this burden. And so, again, it wasn't for them. It wasn't because I believed they deserved it. No, I didn't believe they deserved it from being honest with you. But it was for me, I didn't want to continue to be straddled with this, this, this burden of unforgiveness and resentment toward these people.
I wanted to move on in my heart and in my life. And so that was the step that I had to take to ensure that that happened. So again, You start with forgiving yourself, understanding that you are deserving of forgiveness because you make mistakes and then it allows you to to, to be able to forgive other people easier.
And if you don't feel like forgiving them for them, then you do it for yourself.
Deb: Hmm. Yeah. So good. I feel like we've covered a lot, like guilt and shame and labeling and positive thinking and forgiveness. What, what else do you think would be important for those who are listening?
Martin: Well, you know, when, when you talk about substance use and because there's so much stigma around it, and I know we've talked about that, but I just wanna, I just kind of wanna reiterate that, that, you know, oftentimes we use.
we use drugs and alcohol to numb the feelings, right. So we don't feel the feelings, but then, but then we feel worse about it because we know that we probably shouldn't be using and people have told us that, you know, our families and our friends have, you know, you know, made us feel badly about it. And so now the shame is.
It's even deeper, right? So we keep ourselves in this cycle of shame and guilt, but more so shame than guilt. And we just can't seem to pull ourselves out of it. But. You know, the good news is that there is hope. And the good news is that you don't have to continue to live in this, in this shame and this self fulfilling prophecy and this cycle of never feeling like you're ever gonna overcome this, and you're gonna beat this and that there is help out there.
And if you, if you dial three digits, 9 88 wherever you are, whatever state local that you're. You will get a mental health professional on the line. You may get me if you're in Oregon or you'll get one of my wonderful colleagues or you'll get anybody in your state who can connect you with mental health resources, with counselors who very much know the difference between shame and guilt and will help you to overcome that.
And obviously to, to, to deal with the substance use issues themselves. And so just so you know that you're not. In feeling this shame, we all have felt it. Many of us still feel it today, but that there is a path forward. You do not have to continue to be saddled with, with shame, guilt. Let's embrace it.
Let's learn from it. Let's grow from it. Let's be better because of it never, never allow shame to become a part of your everyday life. It is not your.
Deb: I, I feel like I wanna clap. This is so helpful. I, I think that this will help a lot of people. I just wanna reiterate because this was something new I had learned recently from, so in the United States now there's one.
Number 9 88. Right. And that is the crisis line. Can you just describe that a little bit more?
Martin: It's the behavioral health line? So it was, it was a national initiative that went into effect on July 16th because we have 9 1, 1 for. You know, emergencies. And so we, we, we felt us in the behavioral health field, mental health field, we wanted a quick, easy number for people to dial when they're in a behavioral crisis.
So whether that means you're struggling with suicide, suicidal ideation, or you're just having a bad day. As we all do. And we don't always have a support system where we can call somebody and talk to someone, or maybe we don't wanna burden our family and friends with this problem, this issue that we're having.
That's fine. Pick up the phone and dial nine eighty eight and talk to a complete stranger anonymously. You don't even have to give your first name or anything, but you just want to talk about what is going on and what is plaguing you, and you will be met. Validation and empathy and, and comfort and understanding.
And I'll tell you a, a lot of my colleagues have dealt with substance use disorders or other, you know, mental mental disorders and have found ways to, you know, get treatment and overcome and coping mechanisms and all these things that have enabled us to now be able to help others who are struggling.
And so, again, 9 88 is their 24 7 around the clock. We can connect you. Resources in person resources, online resources, free resources, insurance based resources, you name it, and we have it. And so please, please do not hesitate to dial 9 88. If you are having a bad day, you need somebody to talk to.
Deb: Thank you.
Thank you so much. I've been trying to get the word out and Constantly trying to get the word out about suicide prevention lines. And so this is really important and it's just so helpful. I want people to know that and it's free. And then I know that like in other countries that there are crisis lines as well.
So just for other people who could be as quick as a Google search to find your crisis lines in your country. So. Keep those resources in mind and ask for help and, and know, like Martin said, you're not alone and you can overcome this. That's right. Well, this was really helpful. I really appreciate you coming on and talking about these heavy topics and just giving hope and strategies.
I think it was, you know, very valuable and interesting and. I thank you. Thank you so much for everything you're doing
Martin: well, thank you again for having me and this, this, this was a very important topic and I hope that a lot of people come away with something that they can apply to their own lives or someone they may know who is struggling with with feelings of shame.
And again, we all, you know, have an obligation and responsibility to each other. To, to do right. And, and be better for ourselves and for those in our communities. So thank you so much for having me and for having a discussion around a very important topic.
Deb: Yeah. Thanks Martin. And remind people how they can find you.
Martin: Easiest place is probably on Instagram. If you're on Instagram is at Martin L Lockett, or you can just go to my website at Martin locket dot.
Deb: Maybe if you need someone to talk to and you get lucky enough to have Martin and sounds like there's many other Martins out there to talk to as well. so that's, that's so reassuring.
I'm I'm so glad that you shared that. All right. Well, thank you
Martin: again. Absolutely. Thank you so much.
