Alcohol Problems, Weight Loss Surgery, and Making Big Changes: Unraveling the Connection with Registered Dietitian Kyle Kamp

Episode 125 August 09, 2023 00:56:03
Alcohol Problems, Weight Loss Surgery, and Making Big Changes: Unraveling the Connection with Registered Dietitian Kyle Kamp
Alcohol Tipping Point
Alcohol Problems, Weight Loss Surgery, and Making Big Changes: Unraveling the Connection with Registered Dietitian Kyle Kamp

Aug 09 2023 | 00:56:03


Hosted By

Deb Masner

Show Notes

In this eye-opening episode, we delve into the connection between alcohol, weight loss surgery, and making any significant life changes. My special guest today is Kyle Kamp, a registered dietitian who, after losing 140lbs himself, developed a passion for helping other people learn the basic principles of good nutrition. Kyle worked many years in a bariatric weight loss clinic. Currently, he owns and operates an online nutrition coaching and consulting business called Valley to Peak Nutrition.   

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Valley To Peak Nutrition | Nutrition Coaching for the Outdoor Enthusiast (


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Episode Transcript

Pod Kyle Kamp Deb: Thanks for listening to this episode of the Alcohol tipping point podcast. I wanted to do one that was a little more specific and was related to weight loss. Specifically people who end up having bariatric surgery. And develop alcohol problems afterwards. I wanted to focus on that. And then because of my guests that I have on, I wanted to be able to ask some questions about. What happened when we quit drinking, as far as nutritional concerns for someone who's a heavy drinker. And what are some things we can do to take care of ourselves while quitting drinking? And then I also wanted to ask Kyle about weight loss, drugs. Like ozempic, which have been shown to reduce cravings for food. But also for alcohol. And I just think that even if you're someone that doesn't struggle with weight, if you have never had bariatric surgery, I mean, I realize that's a small population. I think this will be a useful. for you because there are so many. Correlations between over-drinking and overeating and behavioral change. And just how, how do we make changes in our lives and what are different tools we use? And so I was happy to have one of my colleagues from St. Alphonse's we work together. Not closely, but we did work together at the hospital. Kyle camp. Is my guest for today. And he is a registered dietician who after losing 140 pounds himself. Developed a passion for helping other people learn the basic principles of good nutrition. And he worked many years in an outpatient nutrition program in Boise, Idaho at the hospital, we worked at. And he worked also with bariatric surgery clients. And so that's why I wanted to have him on the show. Not only to talk about his experience working in that outpatient nutrition program, but also, you know, he lost 140 pounds himself. So just helping people make big behavior changes and changing your drinking is a huge behavior change. Just like losing weight. Right now, Kyle is working on his own. He owns and operates an online nutrition and coaching. And consulting business called valley to peak nutrition. And I was just delighted to have this conversation with Kyle. Thanks for listening. Well, thanks Kyle. I'm so glad that we got to connect and run into each other again randomly at the grocery store and you've been on my mind because you are out doing your own thing as a registered dietitian. You have all this expertise and this experience having worked in the outpatient setting and worked in the. bariatric setting, and I just wanted to bring you on just kind of talk about how. Well, first, just to talk about bariatric surgery and how someone might develop like a cross addiction with alcohol problems, and then kind of get into the behavior change because you have had this tremendous change in your life back in the day when you lost 140 pounds. And I just think a lot of that translates into making the big behavior change of changing your drinking. Kyle: Yeah, that's a good, a great, very loaded question that I could probably talk about for forever. And I don't know what the what your intro was, but to give listeners a little context to what you had mentioned about about 20 years ago, a little bit less than that. I lost 140 pounds. I didn't have surgery. And, and, you know, as a dietician, one of the things that, I would often hear from people when they would ask what I would do. And these were, you know, relatives or friends or acquaintances, and, you know, I'd go into what the nature of my career was and about bariatric surgery and helping educate patients or whatever the common misconception would be, and they would ask very inquisitively, not, not assumptively. They would say, well, isn't that the easier route to lose weight? And I would say, no, absolutely not. Because in reality, they have to do exactly what I had done without surgery, you know, to, to, to produce that weight loss as well as to manage it long term. And so having had. Been through that process. I feel like I had a very unique window into what they were going through, which is, is, is, like I said, probably very unique. But the cross addiction question is tough because you're making assumptions, right? You're making assumptions about people that you don't necessarily know is true. So I'll preface by saying that second to that, I'll say. When you look at this topic, you look at studies. So you're casting a very broad net. So I'll, I'll just say that what we see in general, not necessarily saying that everyone that's listening falls into this category. The idea of cross addiction is. Okay. Assuming you got to a weight where you felt like you needed bariatric surgery, you probably had some sort of an addictive personality towards food of any kind, right? It's not even necessarily say the food was good or it was bad. When you have surgery, you literally undergo a physical change in your body where you can no longer. indulge in that addiction as much as you would like to. There's a cap on it. You can't put more into this small pouch than you've got after surgery. So it leaves people, I think, feeling with a slight void. They can't do it as much as they had previously wanted to. So naturally, you're going to want to. Put your addiction into something different. Now I've seen like personally and working with people, this develop in a lot of different ways. Usually the addiction drifts towards sometimes relevant to your podcast, alcohol, sometimes drugs. One of the most common, interestingly is ice cream. And I think that A large part of the reason why was you could eat large amounts of ice cream like you could, you had a small pouch, but you could indulge in that. And so people would often not eat food, not eat like, you know, traditional, filling type of foods, right? Like meals, whatever you want to call it, and would instead fill that pouch, that space in their stomach with ice cream. So I think that, you know, the cross addiction is a is a good question, a very, very complicated answer. But I think at the core is people who have addictive personalities, when one route or one outlet gets shut down, they will seek another one. And what that ends up being could be a variety of different things. And yeah, sometimes it is alcohol. Well, can you go Deb: back and just explain what bariatric surgery is and like the different types of bariatric surgery? Kyle: Yeah. So in general, bariatric surgery is going to be. Some sort of a, obviously, surgical procedure to alter your digestion track, let's say there's really two main ones we use now. And I'll talk about those next. There are 2 other ones that that we that are also options. So there's 4 total 2 are common 2 or not. The 2 most uncommon ones are lap band, which was really, really popular for a long time. We'll talk about that. Why? It's not anymore. Here in a second. The other is called a duodenal switch, which is a very complicated procedure that has a lot of risks to it. Very, very, very seldom used if ever anymore, to my knowledge. I, I mean, I probably saw that performed maybe one time in the years that I did it as a dietitian. You would see people come in inpatient who had had it in as a part of their history. But very seldom lap band used to be the most favorite. But what they found over time was the band would slip would drift up the and drift up the stomach towards the esophagus and cause a lot of problems. So what the most routine procedure that I saw when I was doing work at the hospital was people would get the lap band removed and then have one of the more one of the more popular to Options redone, which is one is called a gastric sleeve. One is called a ruin. Why gastric sleeve is basically where they take the stomach and they remove a large section of it to where it goes from having a large reservoir. Like, think about the size of a water bottle. Nalgene water bottle, for example. Cut down to the size of a small cup, right? So it's basically creates just a very, very small pouch that you can now eat. So once that's full, you are full. So it obviously then is going to restrict calories. The ruin Y is similar to that procedure, but there is some rerouting of the intestine intestines that. Cause some malabsorption. So not only are you not eating as much food, you're not absorbing as many calories because of the, the way the surgery is done. Okay. Deb: Thank you. Yeah. So there's 4, but 2 are the typical ones. Okay. And then so with alcohol, just like in general, yeah. How we absorb it, like, what makes it different for someone absorbing alcohol who has had the bariatric surgery versus someone who has not just physiologically? Kyle: Yeah, so we all absorb alcohol in the stomach. The. Rate of gastric emptying is largely going to control how much you get, how fast, et cetera, right? So gastric emptying is basically the fancy word to say how fast your stomach empties whatever is in it. When you get that surgery, you get an increased rate of gastric emptying because of the nature of the surgery. So when you have surgery, your stomach empties faster. That naturally means you're going to be taking in a lot before it ever really hits you. Oh my god, I'm... Drunk, right? So it doesn't take a it doesn't take it a lot anymore. You don't need as much as you used to because the stomach's a lot smaller. Second, the the speed at which you absorb alcohol after surgery is much greater than it was before surgery. So you're able to take in less. It hits you later and before you know it, it takes very little quantity and you're You're intoxicated, right? And I don't, I don't know if I'm allowed to say this. So cut it out if it's not, but that's a fun feeling to some people. So people who used to be addicted to, or it's associated with a fun time, right? Like maybe you were in college and you used to drink and you enjoyed that, right? You enjoyed that whole part of your life, that whole season, not necessarily just a single feeling, but you enjoyed that feeling. You may have given it up for years. You feel it again, all of a sudden, unintentionally, that brings back great memories, you seek those again, right? And so then you continue to engage in a behavior that maybe you didn't necessarily mean to start in the beginning. I, one thing that I have seen over the years of, of doing this is that very rarely do these things start intentionally. It's not like people seek them out and they're like, Oh man, I think I'm gonna. Yeah, I think I'm gonna become a drug addict or it's like they wake up and today seems like a good day to start drinking more alcohol. It's almost always unintended, but grows faster than we really want it to, almost like any addiction, right? Even food. And, and it's, it's, I think what ends up happening is for a lot of people is they unintentionally feel that because it empties faster before you know it, you're feeling things that you didn't necessarily intend to. Even after small quantities, it's like, Oh, well, pre surgery, I used to be able to have X number of drinks and I was totally fine. I'm probably good to go then because they don't, you know, they don't have that education to know that they don't have that awareness, which was part of my job. So they unintentionally feel it and they're like, Oh wow, it doesn't, doesn't take as much. And then it just continues on. Deb: Yeah, that makes sense. And then so the person who, I mean, we know that there's like difference between men and women as far as alcohol absorption and then do we see a difference because the person coming in for bariatric surgery is of a certain weight and a bigger person. So pre surgery, Were they, and this is a generalization, but like being a bigger person and maybe having a bigger stomach size, maybe they were able to handle more alcohol pre surgery and then after they're losing weight and they have a smaller stomach size. Is that part of it too? Well, Kyle: there will be a lot of variables involved, right? Like tolerance. So. If someone is used to drinking a lot, it's going to take more and more and more to fill the effects. Most surgical programs are a six month process. You enter the program six months later, you have surgery, you're checking in with surgeons, dieticians, et cetera, at least once a month to evaluate your progress to two important pieces of that check in processes. We're assuming you're not drinking alcohol anymore, and we're also going to ask you to stop smoking. Those are a couple of the main. Two things that we're going to ask of you. So you can see, Deb: I'm sorry to interrupt you there. So prior to surgery, you're going to require no smoking and no drinking period. Kyle: Yes, we, we do not want you to engage in any of that behavior. Definitely not drinking more than the quote recommended dose of alcohol, which is two drinks a day for men, one drink or less per day, whenever for women. So conceivably you could assume they have reduced their. Quantity prior to surgery from whatever was normal, right? So like, let's fast forward. That person has surgery. They go to drink alcohol again after surgery. Their tolerance is way less than what it used to be when they were a quote drinker, right? Whatever definition you want to put to that. So I think that that That could be part of it. The second thing would be contents of the stomach, right? If you, most people, not always, but a lot of people will, especially when socially they're eating while drinking. So food contents in the gut with alcohol is going to reduce the rate of gastric emptying. That's going to slow how fast or how much it takes for you to feel intoxicated. And that changes things. Well, when you have surgery, not only can you not eat as much food, the rate of emptying is much higher. So the alcohol empties fire much faster. You have very little food content. Your tolerance is a lot less because you've been on this cessation program, you know, whether it's a not like a cessation program in the sense of a 12 step program or something, but just a part of the prerequisite requirements for surgery itself. Your tolerance would be a lot lower, so it doesn't take as much to feel the effects as it did whenever you were, let's say, even drinking socially one time per weekend. So there are a lot of different things that can play a role. And yeah, total body weight can play a role too. I'll, I'll use myself as an example. So. I had a period in college and postgraduate degree where I drank pretty regularly and could drink plenty before starting to feel any sort of an effect. Went years and years without having any alcohol at all. And then honestly, I think it mowing the grass one day, I thought, man, that like a, a drink just sounds good. It was hot. It was a summer day or whatever had. Less than a 12 ounce beer, and I used to be able to drink multiples of those less than a 12 ounce drink and was feeling very much like that was all I needed and then stopped because of that. I was like, look, I, if I can't even have a drink one without feeling like that, I don't want any of it. So basically didn't drink any more ever since then. That's to say that my body weight changed tremendously from the point whenever I was doing it to whenever this point had happened, as well as tolerance changed a ton, you know? And so I think that that's, I'll just pick on myself as an example of a case that people could see the difference between that's without surgery too, right? So my gastric emptying rate, the rate at which my stomach empties is essentially the same as it was then. If you It would become even more of a compound effect if you took someone who did have surgery, that the rate of absorption is increased and you can begin to see how it's just this dynamic thing that plays a role. And it's, it's almost with nutrition. It's almost never just one thing, even with behavior change, like people will say, like, do you deal a lot with, you know, psychology and like the mental health? I was like, that is what I am. I am not a dietician. I am basically a psychologist. Oh Deb: my gosh. That's so true. Yeah. And I know you said, like, some of the studies and what you see in the clinic, whatnot, it, and there's like anecdotes and whatnot, but some of the studies say as much of 30% of patients who have had bariatric surgery could go on to develop a drinking problem. Is that kind of what you saw in the clinic? Or is, were you concerned about it? Were the doctors concerned about? That particular alcohol problem and post surgical patients. Kyle: It's it is known, right? It's known that there's a risk there and yeah, but at the end of the day, and you know, this too, behavior change is hard. Like when people sign up for our nutrition program, the thing that I'll tell them is, look, you'll be in this for a couple of months. Probably like that's what the expected time would be. But the, the, the, the biggest barrier that you're going to have is the 15 inches between your ears or the, the seven inches between your ears, your brain is going to be the hardest thing to deal with here, behavior change is extremely hard and people do not like telling themselves, no, they do not like being able to have what they want. And so even if you raise as much awareness as humanly possible about the situation at the end of the day. Everyone is going to be able to make their own decision and whether it's dealing with nutrition and weight, whether it's dealing with alcohol, whether it's dealing with starting an exercise program, whether it's dealing with getting up out of bed earlier so you can get to work on time, it doesn't matter. We just did a podcast and released a reel on all the social media websites about this. Change is extremely hard, right? And if, if you're. At the end of the day, if you're unwilling to make those sacrifices, it's you could raise the most awareness on the face of the planet unless someone wants to change their behavior. They will not do it. So it is common to know that among that population, they go on to be addicted to something else. Come back to another point to that. We see, but there's only like, that's the most discouraging part about Your job probably and mine is you want it. But at the end of the day, you ultimately know the person on the other end of the phone, the other patient, the person, the computer screen, whatever they have to want it as bad. The other thing that we see, interestingly that I saw was. Relationship changes, divorces, people would have surgery, they would lose a bunch of weight and they would get divorced. When I lost 140 pounds, I, my girlfriend dumped me of six years who I thought we were going to get married, turned out better for me, love my wife, but dumped me. And I think that you see. Two things. One, then people would argue with me to the death on this. I think there's a jealousy sometimes of, okay, this person finally saw some progress. You know, so there's, but I haven't, I didn't have the surgery, so I'm still stuck in my weight and my partner lost their weight. So there's, I think some jealousy. I think there's some fear. Oh, they look a lot better. There's going to be a bunch of people approaching them. So now I'm very, very self aware and self conscious about myself because they'll leave me for someone more attractive. And then behavior change. We're not going to restaurants every night of the week. We're not eating ice cream at 10 PM. We're not popping bags of popcorn and watching movies till 2 AM. We're not, you know, getting milkshakes every Friday night. We're not getting pizza on Saturday. A lot of those social things that brought you together. They don't keep doing those things. Now, I think it's incredibly so in our, in our program, we break it up into three stages. We have an audit phase, a goal phase and a maintenance phase. The audit phase is important for two reasons. The first reason is it's very important that as you look at your nutrition, that you're trying to change. Some of those things come with you as you make your new plan, because. It's what you like. And the more you build a nutrition program built around what you enjoy, the more likely you're to be adherent to it and to make it feel like, ah, this isn't that, like, this isn't a dramatic overhaul. Some change needs to happen, but you, you, you should bring forward some of those things. So bringing it full circle back to the conversation that you, and the question you had asked was, it's important that You keep some of those social things so that even though you change your weight to maybe a healthier spot than it was to prevent chronic disease, maybe, let's say, you still feel like you have a life and you still have a part of yourself that you developed with your spouse over the number of years. I think that that's that that's important. Oh, my God, I Deb: feel like everything you said you could just replace the food with the drink because with the relationships and changing your drinking and people do end relationships because they don't have their drinking buddy anymore. Like, you were talking about, you're not going to get milkshakes anymore, or like, a lot of your social activities revolved around food in that setting you were talking about. But for people who are changing their drinking, their relationships revolve around drinking. And so when you change that, when one partner changes and the other's not, there is that fear and maybe that jealousy and just, it's just so different for them. Kyle: Yeah. I mean, of course you could speak to the alcohol piece better, better than I could, but I remember that very vividly because as a dietician with the, with the, with the bariatric program, with the surgical program, you get to see them a lot. I mean, you're with, you know, they're in the program six months, you follow up with them for a year post op. So you are essentially seeing these people over the stretch of a year and a half, which is different than working inpatient. You walk into the room. Provide an education lesson, make some recommendations. You may, they may discharge that day. You never see them again the rest of your life. But with these people, you see them pretty regularly over the span of about a year and a half. And it was like, what have, weren't you married? Yeah, we got divorced and I, and that was that was common. I was, I mean, don't get me wrong. It's not like, oh, yeah, 90% of the patients, they ended up getting a divorce. Not like that common, but it was just something that I saw as very interesting. It sort of was very surprising to me. That is Deb: interesting. I do want to get talk more about behavior change, but I had a few more nutrition questions to ask you. So one was just. What are some of the nutritional concerns for someone who's a heavy drinker? Kyle: Heavy drinker versus non bariatric, right? Right. Deb: Now we're just pivoting. Pivot! Kyle: So there's a couple of things with the heavy drinker nutrient deficiencies that we worry about. One would be we, we use this term called malnutrition and we cast that net very broadly. Like it's a very ambiguous term that if, if you weren't a dietician, you probably wouldn't be able to really define what it is. And I'll, I'll say this just kind of very in layman's terms. The thing that we worry about with malnutrition for people who consume exercise or for people who consume alcohol is. that their alcohol calories are replacing food calories. Food calories have things like carbohydrates, which provide energy proteins, which will provide recovery for your muscles, but they also help grow your skin, grow your nails, grow your hair. Help processes happen in the body and then as well as dietary fat. Now, people may think negatively about carbs, people may think negatively about dietary fat, but they've all play a functional role to keep you alive and operating. Optimally right to keep you very healthy over a long period of time. So the one of the greatest concerns is that alcohol calories replace those calories. So you simply operate at a deficiency of good overall health. The second thing that we worry about is that when you have a high alcohol consumption, they, That alcohol competes for certain nutrients that are very important for body processes. One of those main processes is the conversion of the food that you eat into usable energy, right? So at some point when you eat food, It gets converted into energy that helps you work and walk into your house and do the dishes and cook a meal. And you're right that that is energy being produced by the food that you eat. We hear terms like calories and we never really correlate the idea of, oh, well, these calories give me energy to do daily tasks, not even talking about the gym or anything like that. Alcohol competes for the enzymes that help that process happen. fluidly, right? That's the second biggest concern. The third would be that alcohol, when in excess, whether that's single doses or frequency or frequency over time, hurts the liver, right? Certain nutrients are processed in the liver. So sometimes you have some of those issues pop up whenever people consume excess alcohol and those processes can happen as well in the liver as well. So Yeah, I mean, by and large, and I guess if you want to go down the performance or sports nutrition rabbit trail, we know that a ton of alcohol, we know that excess alcohol intake really inhibits a person to build any endurance or to recover their muscles to grow muscles after training as well. Deb: Thank you for sharing that. I would just add, and maybe you want to elaborate about the lower blood sugar and having chronically low blood sugar related to alcohol consumption. Kyle: You want to add that? Deb: Well, do you? You're the dietician. You're the expert on this. I always tell people Well, my number one tip for people who are quitting drinking is to eat, because a lot of the times heavy drinkers have chronically low blood sugar, and that can mimic cravings. You know, you're getting that hunger craving, the low blood sugar, the anxiousness, and whatnot. And so, if you can make sure that you eat, you have food I, in the beginning, I don't care what it is. I know ideally it would be like protein, something to keep you full longer just to help reduce that craving for alcohol. So I'm just curious what your take is on that. Kyle: Yeah. And I, one thing I would add is I would agree. I mean, yes, I may be a dietitian and people often associate dietitians with really healthy eating, but I love a good slice of pizza and a donut. And I think that. You have to view things on the spectrum of priorities. And one of the things that we talk about in our program a lot is optimal versus practical. So yeah, sure. Optimal would optimal be vegetables and proteins, I guess, maybe, I don't know. Sure. But more practically speaking right now, we're just trying to get you to kick alcohol and to get some regular intake in. So you start to feel normal and you can kick the cravings that you were having. That is optimal, right? Because when you look at the, when you look at nutrition and you look at health at the end of the day, All people care about two things. They want to live a long time. They want those that long time to be quality. They want it to be a good life. That's all they care about for the most part. If at the end of the day, I can get you to quit alcohol and that provides you a longer life and a higher quality of life. I don't care if you're eating pizza or an apple. I really don't now. Sure. Maybe further down the line. You feel like you've got to get a better handle on the addiction to alcohol and you're ready to tackle something else. And you identify that something as improving the quality of nutrition in your diet. Great. Yep. Let's maybe eat. You know, two slices of pizza instead of four and have a big salad with apples and raisins and walnuts and chicken breast or whatever. I don't know. But I agree with you. I think one of this goes into the behavior change thing again, too. But I think one of the biggest things that One of the biggest mistakes that people make is trying to take on too many things way too fast and trying to master the nuances or chase the zebra in the pack of horses, right? They're trying to find these like little hacks and these things that they're reading on Instagram to get hooked and like they're hooked into doing some sort of little nuanced thing that they think is going to work. And it's like, no, the thing that I say all the time is the best thing you could do is master the basics and do them with relentless consistency. Going back to your blood sugar question. I never really, I haven't ever really observed observed. Blood low blood sugars being a significant nutrition related issue as it pertains to alcohol. Now, if you got someone admitted into the inpatient unit who was, you know, had a severe alcohol problem and was detoxing, then yes, but that can also be a byproduct of the liver being dysfunctional and unable to process carbohydrates very well. And so you get lows and highs and all sorts of things mixed in there in between. Okay, that's good Deb: to know. Well, what do you think people could take or do nutritionally while they're quitting drinking? Is there anything you'd recommend? I mean, I think we kind of generally talked about just eating in general, but how about a little more? Kyle: Yeah, you, you had sent me that question and I put eat. And so it's, it's funny that you, you, you said that. Yeah, I think. So, I think that I think you have to, you have to prioritize things, right? Priority number 1 is to get a control on the control of alcohol consumption period that maybe, I don't know what your program outlines. Maybe that's not complete cessation, but maybe it's just bringing it into a place where you feel like you have control over it. So, I If once you get to that spot, start focusing on what we call there. We, we, we, we classify the quality of nutrition in two ways, nutrient density and calorie density. So nutrient density is basically saying these foods pack a lot of nutrition. Nutrition is a general term we use for a lot of vitamins, minerals, good things for us. These foods pack a lot of nutrition in a small package and give you a lot of good vitamins, minerals, et cetera. Calorie dense is these foods pack a ton of calories, but maybe have very poor amounts of nutrition, vitamins, minerals, et cetera. So example nutrient density, baked potato calorie density, potato chip. Right? So there's, there's a difference between the two with a, basically the same. Type of core food involved with it. Focus on nutrient dense foods for a while, because your body is likely low in those build those stores up. So you start to feel better again, right? I think that that would be one thing. If you absolutely hate nutrient dense foods, you don't like fruits. You don't like vegetables. You hate all of that. Maybe you don't have the prep time. You're never home, whatever. At least take a general daily multivitamin to replace some of those nutrients that were probably lost from a not eating enough food in general, whenever you were drinking more and be trying to replenish those stores of vitamins that are likely low because they were competing for Deb: Okay, this wasn't on my list, but I've been keep hearing about it and I have a friend of a friend who is now doing this. What's your take on IV vitamin therapy? Kyle: Oh, Lord. I, I, Think it's a waste of time and money, right? I mean, look, unless you need it, right? There's clinical situations where people need that. We just did a, as a part of a long distance endurance events in central Idaho or guys spent several a night outside. With a lot of exposure were severely depleted and nutrition came back to the campsite. We gave them some IVs because they were really depleted. They needed them. But you know, the average person just running by your local IV shop, your, your body has a saturation point for a lot of nutrients. Once that saturation point is hit, you're done shut off. Any extra is literally being peed out. So. If that's the case, you may as well the money and put it in the toilet, because that's exactly what's happening. So once those saturation points, which most of those IVs are. Rich in nutrients that you're already either a getting in food or a supplement, meaning a multivitamin or something similar, and they are in quantity so high that, okay, maybe you were low. Let's say you were low, but the quantities in those things are so high, which you're paying for once you get repleted anything above that, which is in every bag is gone. So my suggestion would be. You'd be better off buying a general over the counter multivitamin, taking it one time per day and going about your life than spending time driving to the clinic, spending time in the chair, getting the IV, spending money, peeing out nutrients that you're not even absorbing, spending time driving back over to wherever it was that you came from, your house, your work or whatever. It's, it, but that, that is a good, that is a good Example of what I'd mentioned earlier, where people are trying to find a hack to get this thing, and there is no hack, there are a few basic non negotiables that if you do with consistency, that is the work. But again, it is work and we like the pill. We like the IV. We like the hack and it's like, there isn't one there. And, and I would, maybe this is the same for you. There is no hack to stopping. And getting control of, of, of your alcohol intake, it is work. It is uncomfortable. It is annoying. It does require, you know, some it does inquire intentionality. It inquires awareness. It inquires all of these things that are unnatural, but it produces what you want. There's no hack to that. And I feel like that was something I learned even in my own weight loss. It was like, look, dude, I mean, I was 20. Five or something like that. Whenever I'd lost my weight. If you want to do this, you will need to work at it period. And when I learned that I had just had to embrace that I did, I embraced it. And, you know, I, this goes into the behavior change thing again, but it was worth it, but it was work. It was, I'd be a liar to sit here and tell you like, Oh no, no problem. No problem at all. No, it wasn't. It was. It was hard. Yeah, you have Deb: to be willing to be uncomfortable and, and sit in the, the chaos in the short term to get your long term results. Kyle: 100%. One thing we say all the time is this will move from daily intentional decisions to subconscious behavior. You won't, you will, it will move from you having to feel like you're doing intentional stuff every day to the point of where you wake up and it's just you. You no longer think about it. It is easy. It doesn't seem like work anymore, but that is a hill to climb at first. Deb: Yeah, I appreciate you saying that. And it's true. I mean, yes, it sucks. The beginning part, we call that like sometimes the obstacle course or the river of misery where you're going from one. Identity or whatnot, whether that's an overweight person, or, you know, someone who's not able to climb, you know, run a five K or someone who's quitting drinking. You go through this obstacle course river of misery. That's the hard part until you get to the other side and then. It just becomes you. It's just what you do or don't do. Like, I'm just, I just don't drink and I don't, and it's not hard anymore. Well, talking about just one more thing, and then I do want even more of your behavior tips. But the one more thing was weight loss drugs like Ozempic. I have heard that they could also help with decreasing drinking cravings. Can you kind of touch on those new weight loss drugs, what they are and how they might relate to drinking? Kyle: Yeah, so Ozempic is a medication that was, is designed for Diabetics, and you started having some physicians prescribe it to folks who did not have diabetes as method for weight loss, and people were having success on it, and it really works in two ways. One, it's going to mimic it's going to mimic a rise in hormones that help you feel fuller earlier, right? So you feel fuller in a meal than you would without it, which obviously helps prevent you look to lose weight. You need a calorie deficit. That's it. So this produces the feelings of fuller feeling fuller. Earlier, that helps you eat less, which is obviously creating a calorie deficit. So it produces some weight loss. The other thing that it does is it slows digestion and gastric emptying, like we were talking about earlier. So now food sits with you longer. So not only are you feeling fuller sooner, you're eating less. But even that less food that you're eating stays with you longer, so now there's longer time between your meals. So now instead of eating four or five times per day, you're eating two, and you're not even really that hungry for two. So ultimately these changes are bringing about a pretty significant calorie deficit compared to what a person had previously been eating, which produces weight loss. And then Deb: how would that translate to, like, a decrease in drinking or craving alcohol? Because I've also heard people say the ozempic turns down the mental chatter in your head about food. But, but do you think that's just... Related to the biological happenings in your body, and then you're thinking that or like, what is going on Kyle: there? I don't know. I mean, I don't know on the alcohol end of things. I think that I think if the thing that comes to mind is the placebo effect is strong, right? Even if there's not necessarily a mechanism there, if they've heard that, or if they've been told that, or maybe they sense that from a, Nutrition standpoint, right? They're seeing like, Oh, man, I'm just not hungry as much. And that may give them the energy, the power or whatever to say, I just don't know that I want to drink as much either. It's hard to say because alcohol, you know, like with nutrition, if, if you have that feeling of fullness, you're pretty unlikely to keep trying to just put stuff down. your mouth, right? Alcohol is a little bit different in like the sense of you. That's a deep thing. That's a, that's an intrinsic, not, there's not an appetite driving that in the sense of an empty pit in your stomach, the way that food would be there. So it seems a little bit, honestly, naive of me to say, Oh, well it's maybe placebo, but I don't know. I don't know. I don't know how a Zimbic would affect someone wanting to drink less. Deb: Yeah, I just wanted to ask you that while I had you, because I had just kind of heard, but it sounds like there's not like a lot of science related to it yet. Kyle: Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I can't if you, I guess if you think about again there. Yeah, from from the conversations I've had with people who have tried this as a weight loss drug before wanting to enroll in our program, they don't feel good on it at all. You know, so yes, it does bring about earlier fullness. It does keep you fuller longer because the mechanism of the drug in the body, but they don't feel good, right? They feel bloated and kind of lethargic. They don't have a lot of energy because the calories are so much lower. So I suppose you could say people just don't feel like drinking as much, right? There's no, like, if you think about a beer can be fairly filling. So if you're feeling really lethargic and bloated and just kind of not well, you probably don't want a beer, don't want a full beer, don't want five beers or whatever. I mean, I'm trying to pull stuff out of the air here as to how it might work, but. That's what would maybe make the most sense to me as opposed to unless there's again something I don't know as far as chemically in the brain, helping you get better control of cravings. Got it. Okay. Deb: Well, let's get into some of your advice for people who are making a big behavior change. Kyle: Where do you want to start? Deb: Well, if you could translate it for people who are changing their drinking, that would be amazing. Kyle: Yeah. So from a nutrition standpoint, and you probably do this too, and we've already sort of said this earlier, the one thing that I cannot do for someone, like I can, I can give a decent rah rah speech, you know, and motivate you. But the one thing that I can't, I can't make you do it. I can't make you want it. And so for me, the very first thing that every single person does when they onboard our program is they have to write down why they want this, right? That's very cliche. That's very woo woo. That's very touchy feely. It's like, okay, well, you know, discover your why, but it's true because if you do not have a reason that. Makes you go do the things that you need to do each day when that river of misery hits, you will not do it unless your reason for doing it is pretty deep. Now from a nutrition standpoint, I have found that that is not things like, Oh, I would like to wear a small top instead of a medium, or I would like to wear a extra large top instead of a triple X or whatever. It is things like I am tired of being walked off of airplanes because I can't fit in a seat. I am tired of being unable to get on the floor with my kids and play. It's pretty deep things that hits a person pretty home, like pretty, pretty at their core as to what motivates them. So for alcohol, it's, it's tough to say, but I would imagine it's something like that. So when you, like for a listener, when you're thinking about. What's my reason for wanting to do this? Think about the things that motivate you like that, you know, and, and, and that would help you develop what your why would be right? I think that that's important. Do you guys do you do things like that with people when they on board with you? Oh, yeah. Deb: Why? And what's your vision? And absolutely. Yeah, because it's more than about the drink in the moment, you know, like, but you feel good in the moment. Yeah. But what do you want? How do you want to live your life? You know, and a lot, a lot of the times the why for people is like, I, I want to feel. I want to improve my health. I want to have better quality of life. I want to improve my relationship. I want to be proud of myself. I want to have more energy. I want to have more focus. I want to, you know, just all these different things that alcohol is just taking away, just draining Kyle: from them. And I would, like, I would encourage, and you probably do this, I would encourage people to niche that down, right? Because that's very ambiguous. I want to feel better. What does that look like? What do you feel? When you do not feel good from alcohol, literally write those down. Maybe it's a book. Maybe it's one thing. And, and yes, literally write those down. I want my time back. I want my money back. What does that look like? What does your money look like? What would you like to do with your money instead? I would, I would write those down because if not, the idea of I want to feel better is so ambiguous and nondescript that you don't know what you're looking. What are you looking for? Like what, what is, what is feeling better going to feel like whenever you get there? I think a good, a good general thing to ask yourself is what better life does this going to provide me, right? Well, how is my life going to improve by not doing this anymore? What is my time going to look like? What are my finances are going to look like? What's my relationship with X, Y, and Z person or my kids going, how's that going to improve? What would I want that to look like without alcohol in my life? I would write those down because those are going to be. A lot more descript in here's what I'm chasing. And that's going to make floating through the reservoir of misery. I love it. You say that a lot more worth it when you're drifting in it. And I think what's important is that. You know, there's going to be times you do not feel like waking up and engaging in whatever behaviors you need to engage in to stop drinking, remind yourself of what the successful version of you will look like, what will this look like in six months? Right? Like, so when you think about it from a weight standpoint, one of the things that kept me motivated when I was losing 140 pounds was like, I just want to see what I'll look and feel like at 200 pounds. I started at two 70. I would just want to know what I'll look like if I get to 200 and I hate it. Then I'll quit. That's fine. But I at least want to see what it's going to feel like as a successful version because I've tried to lose weight so many times up to my young age and never, never had been there. And I think that the second thing that as a part of that too, is remind yourself of a realistic expectation, right? So like What should week one of stopping alcohol look like should you feel bad for still wanting a beer at week one? Probably not. That's normal. That's okay You have not failed because what happens is and this is true of weight probably in this too is We get an idea of what we think it should feel like to be successful And then at week one you still want a beer and it's like oh well I'm a failure. I knew this wouldn't happen. I knew I wasn't that caliber. I'm not that kind of guy. And it's like, that's pretty normal, pretty normal to still want one at a month and maybe even two months in. And so what then happens then whenever you have realistic expectations is week one, you still want the beer and you're like. Well, I'm still going to keep going along on my journey because this is normal. I've not failed. This is a common expectation, and I think that that would set the the precedent of executing the plan a lot easier and keep you engaged when the whenever it's realistic expectation number three, and this is probably the hardest thing to stomach is, At some point, you will have to mature and move from, no longer does it become a question of what you want. Like, so for the weight loss thing, I don't really feel like working out today. I don't really feel like, you know, cooking that thing or this thing. I kind of want four donuts. It doesn't matter anymore. At some point you have to move from daily intentional things to You just do it. It's just you, right? You have to. There's there's no longer a conversation within your mind about whether you want to or you don't to. It's a non negotiable. It happens without thinking. You are not sitting there negotiating with yourself anymore. And a phrase that I developed was. It doesn't matter. I don't really feel it doesn't matter. I stopped talking to myself about like we'll use exercise as an example. I don't really feel like working out today. It did not matter. I didn't even sit there and have that thought in my head. I could go tomorrow. I could I when you stop negotiating with yourself, those things stop coming up. You just wake up and you do it. And I think a great parallel for this that everyone will relate to his work. You probably wake up a lot and don't feel like going to work, but you go, you don't even negotiate with yourself. It's not even an option. There is no PTO. There is no vacation. There is a mortgage due and we need food. I know that I am going and you kind of have to move in the beginning. You can be soft gloved with yourself, right? And be kind and all that. And I'm not telling yourself, I'm not telling you to be mean and aggressive to yourself later, but at some point you kind of do have to mature to this idea of like, This is a non negotiable. It does not matter what I feel like. This is the person that I want to become. And so I am going to go do these things that help me become that person. Those are Deb: great. Those are so helpful. I think one of the ones I use for discipline, or like you do it anyway, is brushing your teeth. Because with work, there's still, you're probably still gonna have those moments. But with, with brushing your teeth, there's no drama. There's no thoughts about it. You just do it. Yeah. Yeah, I love that. Love, love, love all your advice. I'm so glad that we got to have this conversation. I feel like we could have like a part two and just get more into the Kyle: behavior. We should, we should, Deb: we should totally do it. Well, tell people how they can find you. Kyle: Sure. Yeah. So our nutrition program's called Valley Tope Nutrition. Almost everything is under V and then the, the number two P nutrition, so it's V two P nutrition on all of the social channels, or V two p is our website. We have a we have a podcast too. It's called Valley Tope Nutrition Podcast. So if you Google Valley Tope Nutrition and you're interested in anything that you see that'll get you to, to most places. Deb: Oh, that's awesome. How'd you come up with that name Valley Kyle: to Peak? That's a good question. So when I was sort of designing the program or the business, I was back home visiting, I lived in, I'm from Indiana. I was back home visiting, driving down the highway, and I was just trying, you know, like when you start something like this, you're trying to be real creative and, you know, you want it to be cool branding and blah, blah, blah. And I just, it just came to me. And the reason That I liked it so much as I wanted it to be descriptive of the program, but also be a good name. And so the idea is that it's, you know, with most weight loss journeys or anything, you know, related to what I do kind of start in a valley and you eventually go to a peak. So yeah, we, hence the name we did value to peak nutrition. We've worked a lot over the years with people who recreate outside. So like our program kind of started with, you know, our tagline was helping people to prepare for and perform optimally in the mountains. And since then the program has grown to basically like. Prepare for and perform optimally in life. Some people we have do nothing in the mountains at all. And that's fine. We love helping those folks. Some people still do stuff in the mountains. Some people are after weight loss. Some people are after education. And they're like, so it's just, it's really grown to be this really broad program that I, I love that. I love that. I, you know, I never, never really intended for it to be super niched and, so, yeah, that's where the, where the name came from. I think it's Deb: great. It does symbolize that journey that we're on. And, you know, and just reminding people like, yeah, you're walking along. You're seeing the mountain in the distance. You may stumble along the way, but keep going. We're not going to put you back to the starting line. Keep going. So, I love it. And it's very Idaho. Kyle: Yes, yeah, that was the other thing, right? And you gotta have a domain that's free, meaning, like, everybody is starting online businesses, so you gotta be pretty creative with the domain name or it won't be for sale, so, you know, we bought the domain for, I think, 10 bucks, 8 years ago, something like that. Ah, Deb: I love it. Well, thank you again for coming on the Kyle: show. Yeah, absolutely. Thank you for having me. I appreciate it. It was a pleasure.

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