Dry Humping with Sober Sexpert Tawny Lara

Pod Tawny Lara Deb: Welcome back to the Alcohol Tipping Point Podcast. I am your host, Deb Masner. I am a registered nurse, health coach and alcohol free badass. And today on the show I have an actual Rock and roll Badass on the show Tawny Lara is on the show. She is a New York based writer. She's a public speaker. She is a Weby, award-winning podcaster, and she's made a name for herself as the sober sex expert in the online recovery space. She is the cohost of Recovery Rocks podcast, and she's a story developer for that weby Award-winning podcast fucking sober. And she also just turned in her book. She told me she just finished writing a book called Dry Humping, A Guide to Booze Free Sex Dating and Relationships. That's coming out next year. Tawny: Yes. Welcome, Tony. I need a nap. Oh my gosh. How do I do all of those things? That's, that's crazy. So good to be here. . Deb: I'm so glad you're here and thank you for being understanding. I was getting nervous with the intro because I'm like, I was joking, like I'm not really a badass. I kind of tongue and cheek it because I'm in Boise, Idaho. I'm a suburban mom. But you were like legit a rock and roll. Alcohol free, Tawny: badass. Well, it's, I, I think there's all different types of bad asses, and you are definitely one of us. Thank you. And I mean, the, the whole rock and roll thing, it's, it's literally in my blood. I, I joke that if, you know, doing a DNA test, I'm like, if heavy metal was an ethnicity, I would be 100% because that is why I'm here. You literally, my dad is a heavy metal musician and mom was his groupie. They're no longer together. It's literally like why I exist. So that's, it's in my blood. I Deb: love that. I, I freaking love that. Well, can you share a little bit like how you became the sober expert? Tawny: Yeah, absolutely. So I, I started my sobriety journey very online, just, you know, talking about the ups and downs of being sober. One of those. Downs for me was getting comfortable with sex and dating without alcohol. That was really difficult for me. Here I am, seven years into recovery and it's still, you know, it's you, you're not fixed all of a sudden, you know, it's a journey. I am in a relationship, but there's still you know, still so much to learn about how to make a relationship work, how to make it healthy. So with all of that to be. I am a writer and podcaster. I post all over social media and so like, I really gravitated towards the topic of alcohol free sex and dating. And then the, the truest badass of them all. Ruby Warrington, who created the term Sober Curious. That is pretty much a household term at this point. She's, she's a friend and we did an event, a sober. Talk together here in New York. And she introduced me as the sobers expert and I just, I ran with it. I took it and I ran with it. . Deb: Oh, I love it. I, I think it's perfect. And they, I mean, how about her? I mean, thank God for sober curious, like, what a great word. Yes. And a great way for people to just kinda explore what their relationship with alcohol is like. Tawny: She truly changed the game, I think. I think she's truly changed the world, like she made drinking less alcohol. A thing where, you know, I've been, like I said, I've been sober seven years. I got sober in 2015. I was definitely sober, curious at the time, but I didn't have a word for it or a community. AA didn't feel right. I was like, What? Where do I belong? And she's created a home for, for that. And if a home is just a name and a hashtag and a book and a podcast, she's done it. She's really done it. Yeah. Deb: Yeah. I, So thank you. Shout out, Tawny: shout out to Ruby. Thank you Ruby . Deb: Well, let's get into to dry humping . Tawny: Yes. Love, Deb: love, love the name of your book, by Tawny: the way. Thank you. Deb: Well, what are like some misconceptions about drinking and Tawny: sex? I mean, I think the biggest one is that drunk sex is better. Drunk sex is fun because yours, there's no inhibitions and you could be crazy and wild. And the more I learned about in, in my own recovery, the more I learned about what alcohol is actually doing to our bodies and minds, I realized. . Wow. That's actually the opposite of sexy . You know, it's like, it's, you know, like I, I drank to numb my anxiety and depression and we can't selectively numb body parts unless you're, you know, getting a tooth pulled or something. But like the average person, we can't just numb, Okay, I wanna turn off my anxiety Now. That's not a thing. With, you know, with a substance you can't do that. So it's actually turn the alcohol is turning off. Everything, you're so, you're not feeling sex as wonderfully as you could be. You're feeling, you know, your, your sense of touch is a little bit numbed depending on how much you've drank. So learning that was truly mind blowing to me. And then also, yes, it's true that you don't have, you're gonna have less inhibitions when you're having drunk sex. But we also need our inhibitions. Our inhibitions are necessary for safety, for mental health, for physical health, getting yourself into dangerous situations. I mean, there's, there's a lyric from This band called Against Me and they say sometimes the party takes you places that you didn't plan on going. And that was a hundred percent my relationship with alcohol, especially when it came to sex, where I'd just be like, Oh, I didn't plan on having sex with this person, but it just happened. And all of this is to say there's nothing wrong with sleeping around. Nothing wrong with having fun. I am very sex positive and like, do your thing. Just be safe. Take care of yourself, you know? So all that's to say, long story short, alcohol actually hinders your sexual pleasure as opposed to what we think as it, it helps it, Yeah. Deb: I mean, it, it really does like numb all, all, all your nerves and your sexual organs. Yes. Did, did you get into the nitty gritty when you were researching like biologically, what's going Tawny: on? Yeah, I mean it's so learning. So alcohol has what's called a biphasic effect. I mean, it's just two phases, you know, this two phases. So the first phase is when you're having one drink, maybe two, you're not drinking to excess. That's. It stays in a somewhat normal substance use. It's not necessarily an abusive state. And then you go into the, the second phase, which it, which is two plus drinks, 3, 4, 5, drinking till you black out. So alcohol impacts our body. You can speak to this as an RN way better than I can. So I would love to hear your, your, an , your retort. So you know, Having one drink. Yeah. It can relax you, it can put you in more of a relaxed date. Sure. But there's also, there's so many other ways to do that. But we're talk, what I'm talking about here is more of like the blackout drunk sex that I, and many of my, you know, fellow sober people used to have. And you know, learning that alcohol can contribute to a erectile dysfunction. You know, we've all heard of whiskey. It's, it's a thing. It's definitely a thing. And then same thing, if you have a vagina, it can cause vaginal dehydration. So alcohol, it, it dehydrates you. You know, when you wake up and you're hungover and you like, your mouth feels like an ashtray, It's so dry, It's because it's drying you out. It's gonna have the same thing, same effect on your vagina. So it's just, you know, being, being aware of these things and that, that was truly eye opening to me. Yeah, Deb: no, I, I think I, I honestly have not done a deep dive into the physiological effects on your sex organs. But I do know, you know, like it is gonna be harder to orgasm. And like you said, the vaginal dryness and the erectile dysfunction. Whiskey dick and all of that, that goes along Tawny: with it. I mean, and also having, we're talking about needing inhibitions. I mean, how many times did I just say, Oh, don't worry about the condom. You know, like there's, there's other risks out there and if you choose to have sex without a condom, fine. Like, no, no shade to that. But if, is that a decision that you're consciously making and that, so that's something that, that's worth, worth taking time to figure. Deb: Oh, absolutely. And I think that just the statistics around like date rape and mm-hmm. and alcohol with any kind of sexual assault is so high. Did you, in your research, what did you discover? Tawny: Oh yeah. I mean, my book is full of statistics on that. I mean, I. I don't have any right here in front of me, but it's like, I think it was, I'm just trying to remember here. I wanna say it was something like three outta four sexual assaults are under the influence of alcohol, either the perpetrator or the victim, or both. And it's usually the woman who is To blame, right? By the, by the media, by the, by the courts. It's usually the woman that is quote at fault because she put herself in a vulnerable situation, so she deserves whatever happened to her. And then the man is just, you know, I'm, I'm specifically thinking of the Brock Turner in her case here of you know I don't wanna get too deep into that, but if you're not familiar, Google it. All, yeah, all that's to say is, you know, men. Are given an all access pass to , to our bodies, unfortunately. And that was a big part of my recovery of reclaiming my body and not giving it away. And finding that I, I'm, I deserve, like real, real, genuine connection, not just like these drunken. Hookups that I thought meant way more May I, you know, delusional relationships, That's a whole other podcast. But alcohol is just, it's truly altering your brain chemistry, you know, like, and I didn't realize that until I stopped drinking. Deb: Yeah. I, I just think it's important always to bring that up because we, we think of alcohol as harmless, you know, for the, OR society does, and it's like, no, it's, it's not, It's just a contributor to so much like societal damage, so Tawny: Well, and alcohol is the number one date rape drug. You know, you hear people talking about roofies and ketamine and putting drugs into drinks. But alcohol, it supersedes those statistics so strong because people are given alcohol to loosen them up, to relax them. And it's just, it is the number one that blew my mind to learn that it was the number one date rape drug. Yeah. Because it is a drug. It's a drug. Yeah. And you know, I. I don't wanna bash alcohol cuz there's some people who can have a healthy relationship with it. Good for you. Have a drink for me. But it's not, it's, I read the labels before you eat the food, you know, know what you're putting in your body and just have some self-awareness. Yeah. Deb: Yeah. Thank you for that. Okay, well what would you say, you know, to someone who. It's sober now, and now, like sober sex can be so freaking Tawny: scary. Yes. I mean the, I think the most important thing is whether you're talking about going on your first date sober or having sex sober for the first time, the most important thing is to date yourself. Give yourself some time. And, you know, I'm not saying anything revolutionary here. AA has their own version of weight one year, you know. I don't like putting a time limit on it because each person needs something different. So spend, spend time alone, even if you're in a relationship, especially if you're in a relationship, spend some time alone. Really getting to know who you are without alcohol. So that could include masturbation, it could include. Going, you know, going to that museum you've always wanted to go to, going to you know, speaking up to pick the restaurant if you're normally a quiet person and just go with the flow. Pick the restaurant. That might sound really silly, but some people are just so focused on people pleasing and that's why they, one of the many reasons why they drank and they incorporated sex with alcohol. Picking a restaurant or picking the vacation spot, something like that can. Really empowering to really build that organic courage, that intrinsic courage as opposed to outsourcing it to liquid courage. And you know, we're so used to the liquid courage. Like, give me a shot. I'm gonna ask this guy out on a date. I need to take a shot first. There is no, there is no direct replacement for alcohol like that. Unfortunately. You do have to do some of the work, which is. I, to me, was completely worth it. Very, very worth it. But like I said, starting with yourself, getting to reconnect with your body, reconnect with your mind and really I think spoil yourself. Like take that luxurious bath by the really nice bath bombs by the just do those things you always wanted to do, but you're like, you know, light, light, the fancy candles, use the, just like, I, I think some stuff like that, like really treating yourself can really help you build that organic courage. Deb: I, I like how you transferred other areas of your life to helping you advocate for yourself as like a sexual being. Mm-hmm. so gaining, so gaining confidence. Just to gain confidence and know what that feels like, whether that's choosing the restaurant you eat at, mm-hmm. or your vacation or like that. I like that. That really applies. Tawny: Good. Yeah. Good. I'm glad that worked. . Deb: Yeah, I, because it is true, like a lot of the times you do end up in that people pleasing mode, and I know that like a lot of women are guilty of that. And so it's, it's just how can you become more of an advocate for yourself and say what you really. Want to do. Yes. And not, huh? Yes. And just, I mean, we do so much for other people. , Tawny: you really do. And then like, you know, just speaking of reframes, like also thinking about what does pleasure mean to you? Cause. In, you know, colloquially we say pleasure and it, we tend to relate it to sex obviously, but it's also like what else brings you pleasure? Is it, Are you a foodie? Does like going to the hottest new restaurant bring you? Pleasure do that. Does taking a really long bath bring you pleasure do that. Like cuz some people. Some people don't like sex. Some people don't like masturbation. And something that I came across in my research is that the asexual community a lot of people in the asexual community talk about how they used alcohol to try to make themselves like sex. And it broke my heart because a, I relate of like, I, I like sex, but I definitely used alcohol to. Try to like something that I didn't really like, you know? And then, you know, I found this Reddit board of, of people of asexual, sober asexual people talking about how once they got sober, they, it came out as asexual and they realized, I actually don't like this. Like, I like dating, I like snuggling, but I don't like penetration. I don't like, or I don't need an orgasm to live my life. So I think, I think sexual liberation can mean anything. Going to a sex party to embracing the fact that you don't like sex. Oh, thank Deb: you for saying that. Yeah. I think that is so helpful. Yeah, because I think there's this perception that if you're not, and especially if you're married, like yeah, if you're not having sex at least once a week, there's something wrong with you. Tawny: I know, I mean, cuz we grew up reading those Cosmo magazines of like, if you don't have sex with your man three times a week, he's gonna look elsewhere. And it's like, puts the onus on you as if like it's your responsibility. And some people don't, don't need sex as much. Or maybe some people want more intimacy and snuggle time. Like there is just so much pressure to be these sexual beings. And it's just, it's so personal. It's just like recovery where it's like, what is, what is, how did you get sober or how, what's your sober curious practice like is gonna be very different than mine. Which is different than yours. Same thing with your sexuality. Like maybe you only really like having sex once a month. Great. Like, like who cares? Like as, as long as you're advocating for that and. You know, and something that's also worth noting is like a lot of people that get sober are realize that they have undiagnosed mental health issues. So we get on SSRIs raising my hand here, like, you know, and that can dole your libido. So it's, it's okay. The, the, It's okay if you're not feeling sexual. . Deb: Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Here I am like married 20 years and yeah, I mean, I, and I think, and I promote it too, like sober sex is better. You feel everything more, but also like really reevaluating. What is your, what are your relationships like? So. Here I've been married 20 years. You got sober at, in the dating area of your life. Mm-hmm. , and you're still in the dating realm of your life. So I kind of like that. That's two different experiences, but. Can you talk about well let's just talk about sober dating first. Sure. And what are some tips you have for people out there, Rock and their sobriety or their sober curious Yeah. And they don't know what to say. Tawny: Well, you know, I'm so glad you brought this up cuz the dating app Hinge actually did a study in published a study in June of 22. So just a couple months ago. They interviewed Gen Z and millennial. And it was about alcohol and dating. And 75% of these, of these 3000 people in this, in this study, 75% said that they are looking for alcohol free first dates. And I thought that was just so fucking cool that like it, whether they're sober or not, that wasn't even part of the conversation. They're just like, No, I want a date that. Me start in a bar that gives me a little bit of hope, for the future generations. And it's also, I think it inspires people to get creative. Cuz like, let's grab a drink is like, it's a, it's a classic for a reason, right? It's easy, it's very easy. But it's not necessarily an activity. It's not necessarily a an interesting way to bond or connect with someone. So, you know. In my book, I talk about how most dates are actually inherently alcohol free. We just add the alcohol to them. So, you know, going to the movies is an alcohol free date. Going to a Broadway show as an alcohol free date, you just, you choose if you buy a drink, that's up to you. So I think the biggest tip that I would recommend for anyone who's new to sober or alcohol free dating is to incorporate some move. So that can just mean going for a walk. I'm a big fan of like going to a museum, going to a botanical garden because A, you're moving, you're like, you're getting some of those anxious first date jitters out because you're moving. And then B. You have something external to talk about as opposed to, you know, you're sitting at a coffee shop staring at each other, . If you're at a botanical garden or if you're at a museum, there's something for you guys to talk about that is not about yourselves. It's, it's about this gorgeous thing that you're observing. So it, it creates an opportunity for, you know, for a deeper connection. Deb: Oh, that's a great, I, I actually like that idea. Any, for anybody, but a first date, that's Tawny: for sure. Any first date if your first date, if you've been married for 20 years. Like, I mean, I've been with my partner for four years and it still feels like, like what else is there to talk about sometimes, you know, so, you know, adding something external or, you know, play going and like going to an escape room, going to Like these, those rage rooms where you break stuff. Like there's all these, all sorts of experimental dates, experiential dates out there. So just, just go give it a try. Yeah. Be curious. I like, be curious, . Deb: So what about people who are in long term relationships and then one, I I've noticed a couple different scenarios. So one is you're in a relationship but, and you give up drinking, but your partner does not and they've been drinking buddy. So what kind of advice do you have for that Tawny: person? It's a really important question. I'm glad you brought that up. At the risk of sounding very predictable, my answer is gonna be communication. . My answer to all these questions is gonna be communication. You know, it's, but it's honestly having a conversation and just saying like, Look I'm in a place where I wanna cut back on my drinking. I know that we split a bottle of wine after work every night. I'd love if we could find another, if we could create another ritual and. Letting them know where you are and also letting them know that you don't expect them to stop drinking just because you are. If they wanna do it with you, great, but it's also okay if they don't. So I think it's really finding something to replace that ritual of the after work drink. Or if you, if you have a drink before you guys get into bed, what's something you can do together instead? You know, it's so, it's, I think it's really having a conversation about that and trying different things. Some people like to meditate before they get intimate. Some people want to get a workout in before they get intimate to get their endorphins going. So, You know, like I keep saying, everything is so deeply personal, especially when you're talking about a relationship. Cuz your connection is so personal and the only way to really find what works is to talk about it. And, and, you know, if you've been together for a long time, you, you can, you should be able to laugh through the awkwardness of like, Okay, this sucks, this didn't work. Like, let's try something else, you know? And then that's hoping that they, that they're on board. This can also be a really uncomfortable pivot point for some relationships where you realize that alcohol might be one of the big things you had in common. And I've been there. It's, it's very uncomfortable. It's difficult to make that kind of a relationship work. It probably can, but it's gonna require a lot of communication and some uncomfortable. conversations with yourself and with each other. Deb: Yeah. Just there's no, like, easy answer is there. You have to talk to Tawny: each other. I, I hate that. That's my, that's my answer to most of these questions is like, you gotta talk about it. And that's why we drink, right? Is because we didn't wanna talk about it. We didn't. It's also like we didn't have the language. We didn't like, I, I would've never thought to say, I'm feeling really anxious about this. Can we pause ? I would've never said that before. But now with years of recovery and therapy, I'm like, Oh, it's okay to, to ask for, it's okay to ask for anything I want , you know, like you can ask. And that's difficult to get in the practice of, especially for women. Deb: Yeah, I, I agree. I've noticed that. And it just takes practice and like you said, trying it out with other areas besides sex or your relationship. Just, you know, just trying out advocate for yourself. Let me see here. So what, what have you noticed? Just about like pe you talked about pivoting. So sometimes your relationship will change and sometimes your, your own like feelings about sex will change. So what are some things you've seen, like, I just feel like getting sober, giving up alcohol is so transformative for people. And so whether it's like a career change or it's a relationship change or a lot of people have changed their sexuality too, not changed it. That's a. But like embrace who they really are. So what kinds of things have you noticed? Tawny: I love this question. Yeah. I mean, the amount of people I know that have either came out or embraced a kink or I just, any, just like we said, embraced who they are, whether it's a sexual thing or learning. Pick their dinner or a restaurant , you know or realizing that they're unhappy in a job like making these really big life decisions. You know, I wouldn't recommend making those life decisions super early on in your journey. You know, don't, don't do anything impulsive unless you're in danger, of course. But I, I think that's so beautiful that. Learning that alcohol, learning the role alcohol played in your life, and then realizing that you no longer need it because you've embraced who you are. Like what's more beautiful than that, whether it's coming out or leaving a dysfunctional relationship or moving whatever, whatever it is, like yeah, I mean it's, I, I embraced my bisexuality in sobriety. I always knew that I liked men and women. But I didn't feel bisexual enough. But that was a, you know, a big part of my recovery journey was embracing my sexuality and learning about it, Reading books about it, reading or like watching TV shows, following bisexual people on social media, like really learning about what my sexuality is. I don't know that I ever would've done that if I kept drinking. Deb: Yeah, I know, I, I, I know a lot of people who have also, you know, just kind of embraced that they are gay or they've come out, or I've had two friends on the get on the show who are transgender and they didn't. Change or knew they could until after they got sober. So I, I do think it, it's something, you know, it's such a time for exploration. I mean, we've been numbing ourselves with alcohol and tolerating things with alcohol. Like you talked about sex and some people don't like, like maybe you were just tolerating Tawny: it. Like there's, I mean, there's definitely positions that I did because the person I was with liked them. And I didn't think that I had the agency or the, just the audacity to say, Actually don't like this, or, you know. Now with my partner, if I'm like really in my head, I can say I'm, I'm really in my head right now. Can we, can we take a break for a second? You know, and. I would've, I don't, I would've never had the confidence to do that before. I would've just like, powered through because I, I thought sex was like something more. That was done to me as opposed to something that I was actively part of, even though I enjoyed it. Don't get me wrong, there was it, There was still this, like my role as a woman is to be the receiver and to be quiet and perform and just letting all of that go has like, has taken a huge weight off. Deb: Yeah, I have to share this story. I, I used to work at Planned Parenthood and so we had a lot of teens come through and one of the nurse practitioners was sharing that. She asked this teen girl like, Are you sexually active? And the girl said, No. I usually just lay there Tawny: Oh my gosh, I hope she's listening right now and has. Found her sexuality, . Deb: I just, That was classic. Tawny: Oh my God. I mean, also, there's nothing wrong with that if that's what you're into. Like missionaries are classic for a reason. Let's be real . Deb: Okay. Well, what, what else do you wanna share about sex, sober sex and relationships? What else could we talk about? Tawny: It's a good question. I mean, I just, I think, I think getting sober or getting sober curious, evaluating your relationship with alcohol is a really good chance to evaluate other things in your life, like we said, and seeing how they intersect with alcohol. You know, are you in. Hamster wheel where it's like you work nine to five and then you go to happy hour, and then you go home and then you watch the Kardashians, and then you go to bed . And if you're happy with that, amazing. Like, great for you if you're not happy with that. Like, what, what's going on there? And I cannot advocate for therapy enough. I mean, getting, getting mental health help is the best thing that you could do for yourself. I also acknowledge that it's not the most accessible. It's difficult to find the right therapist, and it is expensive if you don't have healthcare. So, you know, there's tons of free resources online. Even just look up hashtag sober on Instagram, hashtag sober Curious, like there's so many podcasts and books and just resources at the out there about recovery, you know, and then. There is a podcast called, Fuck Yeah. Sober Sex that that I recommend, but there's not a lot of resources on that intersection, , which is, you know, where my book comes in that comes out next fall. But I think, I think the biggest thing, biggest gift you could give yourself is like, this might sound crazy, but let yourself Google, like Google that thing that's been in the back of your mind, whether it's a kink, you wanna explore a word. Floats around in your head like, Am I this? Read about it, you know, ob check to make sure that it's a reputable source. But just let yourself explore, I think is, I think like we said at the very beginning, getting more confidence in yourself. Discovering who you are is only going to help you have better sex because you're gonna know who you are and what you like. You're gonna know like what you're gonna remember, that you deserve pleasure, you deserve good things. You deserve to be treated well and respected. So if you're spending a good amount of time dating yourself and taking care of yourself, someone comes in and they're not treating you right, you're good. You're gonna recognize it. You're gonna know like, my homeostasis is off. And it's ever since this person came in, so like, what's going on there? You. Yeah, I, I love Deb: it. Well, your new book, tell me about it and when it comes out. Tawny: Yes. So something that I'm learning about the publishing industry is that it moves at a, a glacial pace. So the book comes out in fall of 23, even though I just turned it in last week. It comes out fall of 23 cuz there's so much that goes on in. I so yeah, I mean, follow me on all of the social medias and you'll find out, you know, it'll go on pre-order pretty soon, I think, in a couple months. And we're gonna have the cover reveal soon and, you know, there's all these steps that lead up to it, and then it comes out. So, first book, we'll see. I don't, it's just, this is the book I needed. This is the book I needed when I was newly sober, you know. Getting sober in 2015. This is before we had the word sober. Curious. This is before people were talking about sober sex and dating. So this is the book that I really needed when I was 29 years old and had no idea where to start. So I hope it helps some some other. People, whether they're sober 20 years, whether they're doing a dry January. I, I, the book is written for like through an inclusive lens of like, it's not about being sober, it is about the role alcohol plays in sex and dating and how to replace it so it's accessible regardless of where you are on your sobriety journey. Yeah, I, Deb: I'm really looking forward to it, so, Yay. And congratulations. I mean, you've done a lot of writing and then this is your first book. That's fantastic. Tawny: Thank you so much, . Deb: Well, tell me, tell us about some of the tell us about your podcast that you're involved in. Tawny: Yeah, so. I co-host a Recovery Rocks podcast with my dear friend Lisa Smith. She's another author. She wrote a, a memoir called Girl Walks Out of a Bar about she's a lawyer and it, it was about being a, a New York City, you know, power lawyer who got lost in alcohol and cocaine addiction. So a lot. She does a lot of, Talks in the legal world. She goes, talks to law schools, legal professions law firms and talks about like that intersection of. Recovery and the corporate world, which is super important. So, you know, and she, so we, we each have our own niche with what we talk about in the sobriety space. And then, and she's also the traditional AA 12 step and I'm not. So, you know, we come at it from different perspectives. We're always on the same page. Like we very rarely disagree. And the whole point of this show is, you know, we call it recovery rocks because it's about recovery and rock and roll, where it's like we talk about something that has to do with recovery. And then the last couple minutes are, we're talking about songs that have to do with what we just talked about. Cuz we are, that's how we, we bonded over recovery and rock and roll. So I was like, well our podcast has to reflect that . Deb: Oh, that is so fun. And then it, Are you still a part of the other podcast? The fucking sober one. Tawny: Fucking sober. So I, it was just, I was just a the story developer for the first season and the second season's coming out soon. I'm not as involved with with that. No. But it, it's, it's really interesting. So fucking sober. It was created by Katie Mack. She is a, another sober artist. And it is about the first 90 days it is a, it's, it's a narrative podcast. So it's, it's very different where, you know, there's lots of podcasts like you and I have where it's people shooting the shit about recovery. This is following it's narrative. It's following a fictional character named Anita through her first 90 days. each season is about, is a different character, a different person, a different person's story. So she fictionalized her story, turned it into Anita's story, and it's just, it's really interesting. There's nothing else like it out there in the recovery podcasting space. So if you're looking for a narrative, storytelling about sobriety or the first 90 days, I can't recommend fucking sober enough. Wow. Deb: Thank you. Yeah, I think that it's so helpful. Love it. And then , what are other ways people can find you? Tawny: Yeah. I'm Tony m Lara at, you know, on all of the social medias, TikTok, Instagram, Twitter my website's tony lara.com. If you wanna read any of my freelance work. It's all, it's all on there. I've been published in Playboy Men's Health, Huffington Post. Usually about the intersection of sobriety and sex. So if you want, you know, I have some also just like how to survive the holidays without alcohol. How to, you know, how to go on a date without alcohol. Like I, I've written about all those topics and on Instagram I'm very annoying and always posting videos, . Me too. . I mean, you have to be, if you, you've gotta, you're putting your shit out there. You've gotta be like on every website. Deb: Oh, good. Well, I'm so glad that we got the chance to connect. I, I'm so looking forward to your book and just love the work that you do and I can't thank you enough. Tawny: Thank you for having me, and thank you for holding space for, for this important conversation. I hope it was hope it was helpful to anyone listening that you know, you're not alone. If, if sober dating and sober sex is hard, it's, you're not alone. We're, we've literally, we've all experienced it and we still experience it sometimes.