You Are Not Alone: Loneliness, Suicide, Shame, and the Way Forward with Jinhyun Shin

Episode 154 February 28, 2024 00:58:35
You Are Not Alone: Loneliness, Suicide, Shame, and the Way Forward with Jinhyun Shin
Alcohol Tipping Point
You Are Not Alone: Loneliness, Suicide, Shame, and the Way Forward with Jinhyun Shin

Feb 28 2024 | 00:58:35


Hosted By

Deb Masner

Show Notes

Jinhyun Shin is a mental wellness entrepreneur and coach looking to normalize mental health. He is one of the founders of the mental health platform Penciv. Jinhyun is passionate about suicide prevention, especially by addressing the root cause of loneliness. As an ethnographer, he has explored the gap between people’s life situations and their inner feelings. He has created tools and language to help people understand and improve their mental health in practical and communal ways. He has worked with various groups, such as professional athletes, Fortune 500 companies, veterans, and people recovering from addiction, to share his insights and frameworks on mental health.  

We talk about: 

If you or someone you know is struggling or in crisis, help is available. Call or text 988 or chat  

For International mental health: Mental Health Helplines: International Directory ( 

Find Jin and Penciv: 

Link to Womeness episode: Womeness Podcast: Ep. 41 - Divorcing Alcohol with Deb Masner, Creator of The Alcohol Tipping Point on Apple Podcasts   

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Episode Transcript

[00:00:03] Speaker A: Welcome to the Alcohol Tipping Point podcast. I'm your host, Deb Maisner. I'm a registered nurse, health coach, and alcohol free badass. I have found that there's more than one way to address drinking. If you've ever asked yourself if drinking is taking more than it's giving, or if you've found that you're drinking more than usual, you may have reached your own alcohol tipping point. The alcohol tipping point is a podcast for you to find tips, tools, and thoughts to change your drinking. Whether you're ready to quit forever or a week, this is the place for you. You are not stuck, and you can change. [00:00:37] Speaker B: Let's get started. Well, hello. [00:00:49] Speaker A: Thank for listening to this episode of the Alcohol Tipping Point podcast. I have on the show today someone who reached out to me just randomly in email. His name is Jinyan Shin, and he just reached out because he is the founder of a mental health platform called Pensive. But also, he just has this genuine passion for mental health and focuses on helping people who are feeling lonely. And he also has a strong passion for preventing suicide, which is something that I think is very, very important. And I think it's so important to have these kinds of conversations. And so this podcast I think you'll find interesting and hopefully helpful as well. Like I said, jin is the founder of the mental health platform Pensive, and he's worked with professional athletes, Fortune 500 companies, veterans, people recovering from addiction. And his passion, his purpose and calling, you could say, is to help people, to help people feel not so alone. So I hope you enjoy this conversation. I also want to invite you to the next alcoholiday, which is my monthly dry group for people who are looking to change their drinking. [00:02:19] Speaker B: It is a group that will help. [00:02:20] Speaker A: You, support you if you're taking a break from drinking or if you know you're done and you've divorced drinking, and maybe you already have some days under your belt, but you feel like you're missing some pieces. And one of those big pieces is community. And actually, we talk a lot about that when we're talking about loneliness and connection in this conversation. In the alcoholiday, what you get is a group. It's a private group, and you get your own little chat feed, and we have group meetings. They're not recorded so that you can feel safe to talk with people, other people who just get it, who understand what you're going through. It is so, so helpful to be able to share with people who have been through it. It's one thing to have some good friends in your life or maybe your partner. But if they don't get it, if they don't get what's going on with your drinking, it's not the same. Finding people who get it is truly life changing and helpful. So in the alcoholiday, you are around those other people. And it's a small group. We only had about, I think like 25 in our February group. And so this next one, if you're listening now, will be our march group. And it's very affordable and it's very helpful. You get daily emails, you get lots of content. People think of it as homework, as not homework. It's just content and modules to help you have more tools and resources. And I'm a big advocate for science based and compassion based tools when it comes to changing your drinking. And I'm also big into just helping you practice not drinking because you have developed this habit of drinking. You've spent decades drinking and so it's going to take some time to unwind the habit. And that's why I think it's so important to have groups like these, whether you do mine or find another one, but have a safe, supportive, non judgmental group where you can practice not drinking without being judged around it or shamed into sobriety. I know that it takes some time to figure out what do you really want your relationship with alcohol to be like? And I think that it's important to give yourself that time and those tools. Like I said, and for a lot of people, this is the first time they've done anything like this. Most people try to change their drinking on their own. [00:05:06] Speaker B: And I was that way. [00:05:08] Speaker A: I was that way for years. And one of the big turning points or tipping points for me was when I joined a group, when I joined an online group even. It was just so refreshing. I was like, oh my God, there are other people like me. I'm not alone. And that was so helpful. I was just reading a comment from one of my group members in the February group today, and she shared, I just wanted to say how important you deb, this board, this group of people have been for me. Sometimes I feel like Alice in Wonderland and can feel the slip happening in my mind, losing my footing or grounding out there in the real world. This group has truly been a kind of sounding board accountability. All the honesty, vulnerability and positivity have been helping me so, so much. So I just wanted to share that and invite you to the next alcohol day. So you can go to alcoholiday and you can use the code love, love, all capital letters and that'll give you 20% off. It is less than $3 a day, so it's very affordable. If you can't afford that though, do reach out. I want to help you out. I don't want finances to be a barrier for you, so feel free to email me. Alcohol tipping point as usual, I put all the links in the show notes, and I also have a lot of free resources too. If you don't want to do the group thing. I have a ten day email. It's a ten day email, little mini break from alcohol, and that's totally free. The links down there as well. I have a dry guide. I have a mocktail recipe book. I have really helpful download called 100 questions to change your drinking. So if you're into journaling, that would be a really helpful tool for you. And again, those are free as well. And then, of course, this podcast. I just want to make sure you know that there are resources out there for you. And I also want to just encourage you. Like, if you've been thinking about it, now's the time to do it. And if not with me, that's okay. Find someone else to do it with. Find another group. Just know that you don't have to do this alone and you can change. Thanks for listening. [00:07:40] Speaker B: Well, welcome, officially welcome to you, Jin Yan Shin. I'm looking forward to our conversation. You reached out because you're passionate about having conversations about mental health, about suicide prevention, about loneliness. And I think loneliness isn't a real epidemic now with our society and whatnot. So I'm looking forward to this conversation. And before we get started, I just want to hear a little bit about you and what you do and just how you got into this, how this is important to you. [00:08:19] Speaker C: Yeah, thanks so much for making the space and time for me. I will address that. But before I introduce myself, I just want to say that as I've gotten to listen to your podcast, what is so original and also comforting is how you really guide people in wherever they are at, in their relationship with alcohol. That really does resonate into other substances, too. And you're able to foster this curiosity in a way that really lets, I think, I mean, I can feel it for myself, and I'm sure others can too. It lets us all believe that there is a unique path for us, and you promote that just so effectively. I'm going to talk about that again later where I've heard you on a different podcast do that super effectively. So just thank you. Yeah, thank you for creating this platform for people to just enrich their curiosity, support them. Yeah, it's awesome. And I'm a huge fan. So thank you. [00:09:23] Speaker B: Thank you. Warm my heart. Thank you. [00:09:27] Speaker C: For sure. So, yes, my name is Jin Yan Shin, and I'm a mental wellness entrepreneur and coach. As an entrepreneur, I just consider myself one of many people who are trying to normalize mental health, and we do that by trying to really promote feelings as information. And so I'll talk about that later. And as a coach, yeah, I kind of fell into this because I believe my calling in life, if you believe in those, is to help prevent suicides. And just kind of, through my lived research experience, I've developed a lot of language around loneliness and how disconnect can kind of take us off of our own path, our path of believing in ourselves, belonging to communities, and how that manifests in our lives, why it's important to get back to those communities. So, yeah, I've just developed a lot of language around loneliness, and I'm excited to get to talk to you about that today. [00:10:31] Speaker B: Yeah, thank you for sharing. I know that, like I was saying, the loneliness is an epidemic and suicide is, too. And I've lost some people in my life due to suicide and also strongly correlated with drinking. And I know that it's really common for a lot of people. This is a hard topic to talk about. So just say to people to have an open mind and make sure you're in a safe spot where you feel okay listening to this. And if you need to reach out to anybody, please do. And then also know, like, there is now nationwide in the United States anyway, there's the number nine eight eight, which is the crisis line. And so I just want to put that out there ahead of time. If you're listening to this and it's bringing up a lot of emotion, please seek help and know that you're not alone and there is help out there. But when we talk about suicide, how common is it, and why do we need to have this conversation? [00:11:39] Speaker C: Yeah, great question. It is scary common, and it's on a very scary trend, and I'll tie in loneliness as well. I got to slow my brain down for a second. But if you look on the CDC's website today, they have the top causes of death, and they do this breakdown between the ages of one and 44 years old to kind of represent that half life. And within that age range, suicide is the second highest leading cause of death, only behind drug overdoses and ahead of car accidents. As you get to the older age ranges and in totality. Let's actually zoom out to just in totality. In the United States, suicide is the 11th leading cause of death, but there are eight that precede that. That I kind of dub as, like, organ failure. And failure is a strong word, but just think of, like, stroke, heart disease, liver disease, kidney disease. Eight take the top eleven. Right? And then if you kind of group all of that together, suicide still fits within the top five. That's scary. And if we don't talk about mental health and provide people with the language and talk about it in their communities, we're not going to be able to turn this trend. Weirdly, I actually find tremendous hope in the loneliness statistic or loneliness as a statistic. And you might think, well, it would take a pretty extreme perspective to think that way. And you would be right. I am a Korean American, and the two countries that compete for the highest suicide rates in the world are Korea and Japan. It's so bad that in October of 2020, you can google this, and you'll find this data attempted to be slightly hidden because no culture is too proud of this. But in October of 2020, in every country in the world, Covid was the leading cause of death, except for Japan. It was suicide. And what those countries lacked is a way to identify the issue as it was growing. So, yeah, when I first heard about loneliness, it certainly scared me. But as I have done more research and I've gotten to know the problem, it gives me tremendous hope, because it gives us a way to tap into what's causing suicides. Not that it's the reason, but a reason. Right. And that gives me tremendous hope. So that's why I'm so excited to talk about it today and give us tools, more language, more questions that we can ask our peers and our. [00:14:31] Speaker B: Yeah. Why do you think that is? That Korea and Japan have the highest suicide rates? That's interesting. I didn't know that. [00:14:40] Speaker C: Yeah, I actually just published a blog post about this this morning. But I think just speaking from what I've seen in the culture is there is just a tremendous pressure on productivity, that productivity yields, like, a prosperous life. And so it's kind of a do at all costs mentality and rest when you vaguely get there. And that is kind of working its way into the United States in a very different way, I'll say, where we are encouraged to explore our curiosity, but there are not really good guidelines on how to explore our curiosity. And so this pressure of what is enough really starts to sink into the bones. And I think that if you are always constantly doing and doing and doing and not resting to just be, I think that you can find yourself in pretty lonely, isolated corners of when you finally need to rest and process. So, yeah, I talk a lot about doing versus being as well as a way of, hey, just take a break and make sure that what you're doing is informing your identity and a part of your identity. And if you do that for really, or if you don't do that, you go a really long time. It can be earth shatteringly scary for like, hey, why have I just been doing what I've been doing for the last 25 years? So, yeah, I think that the real root of it is this productivity mentality that is making it really hard to talk about when we need help to rest. [00:16:35] Speaker B: Yeah, I think that being versus doing is key to a lot of things. And coming back to the present moment like we were talking about earlier, just being, it's okay, and you don't have to be busy all the time, and that's just manifest in our culture. And I think the whole being so independent and strong. Yes. And not asking for help, I think you see that across the board in different cultures as well, with men especially, too. So just making sure it's okay to ask for help, because I think a lot of people are in these silos. [00:17:18] Speaker C: Yes. [00:17:19] Speaker B: And then they feel lonely. So let's talk about loneliness. [00:17:25] Speaker C: Yes. Silos. I love using that word. I think it's a great word to kind of illustrate what loneliness can look like and feel like. When I try to define loneliness in its simplest form, it's when we aren't being seen for how we're feeling. And even though that may seem like such a small thing, it's so hard. It's, like, imperceivable when that feeling that we're not being seen for, suddenly we rationalize as, you know what? This feeling disqualifies me from being part of a community because nobody sees it and nobody can affirm it and nobody can confirm it. So even though it starts super small. Right. Just kind of reflecting with people can help you stay out of that silo and that risky space of, oh, my goodness, I don't belong because nobody knows this about me, but I feel like I can't tell anyone. So, yeah, that's kind of how loneliness starts and how it manifests in a really dangerous way. Before I talk more about. I want to talk more about how it manifests, but my mind jumped to a question somebody once asked me. When you said. When you talked about silos. Something that really frustrates me about american pop culture is for men, it's how they market the self made man. And for women, it's how they market the natural woman to just be graceful and make it look easy all the time. It's man. It's. I think it's just the wrong thing to promote, because so many of our favorite moments that we take pictures of that we want to relive, I'd say a majority of them, are moments that we've gotten to live and share with others. And it feels like countercultural to keep promoting the self made man or the natural woman in a way that's like, wait a second. This is kind of drawing me away from some of my favorite moments in life. So, yeah, I just wanted to kind of try to nip that in the bud. If we could all do that, I would be so, so happy. That would be awesome. But, yeah, going, yeah, sorry. [00:20:08] Speaker B: I was just going to say that just makes me think about, like, okay, how do we be more authentic and show our true selves, warts and all, and just be real? That's what people want. And going back to that loneliness, that's how I felt when I was changing my drinking, when I was recognizing, like, gosh, I have a drinking problem. I felt like I was the only one, and that felt so lonely and isolating and then connected to that was shame. [00:20:42] Speaker C: Yeah. And it just jumps in an instant, doesn't it? It jumps in an instant and kind of. I want to illustrate how this can jump right? Where, let's say it's a positive jump. Let's say I just had an achievement that I'm really proud of, and I don't share that with anybody. How loneliness can manifest, that is man. Now I start to ask myself, am I just super conceited? Do I need the validation from somebody else? And we've taken an achievement and a healthy pride into doubt. A negative form of that would be man. I'm. I'm feeling sad, and I'm not letting anybody know. And the fact that I'm still feeling sad about a mishap, about an accident a month ago makes me think I'm so weak, right. And that I shouldn't still be sad. When we can't talk about our feelings, we jump to conclusions about ourselves, and loneliness makes our feelings manifest in pretty harmful ways. That can lead to a place like shame that you said. Right. I think there's this step before shame that is like isolation, where we tell ourselves, I've got everything under control. The story I'm telling myself, the story I'm telling my friends, my coping mechanisms, I've got everything under control. And that's kind of that place of I'm trying to convince myself that even though I'm alone, I'm going to be okay. And it's dangerous because the line between isolation and shame, all it takes is to look at whatever you're hiding and one day not be proud of how you're healing. And suddenly you've woken up into I'm not worthy of love, I'm not worthy of help. And yeah, it happens in an instant. It happens in the blink of an eye. And loneliness can certainly manifest into that place. [00:23:13] Speaker B: Yeah. I'm finding more and more as we get to the core of people and peeling back the layers that when you get down to it, it's like that feeling of worthiness and enoughness. [00:23:31] Speaker C: Yes. [00:23:34] Speaker B: And I've talked about this before, but it's always worth hearing again, but I don't know what happens along the way, but when we're born, we're born worthy. And you think about babies, they don't have to prove their worth. They are worthy because they exist and they are born. This kitten, my new little kitten, is worthy. He doesn't have to prove anything, right? And same with nature and trees and flat. We're not like, you need to prove your worth. Why are you here? And something happens to humans along the way where we get to where we feel like we have to prove our worth and our enoughness, but simply being here and existing, you are worthy of love and a good life. You don't have to do anything to prove that. And it makes me sad because I felt that way, too. Like that feeling of worthlessness, like the mud. Talk about making meaning out of the mud in life and share about that. [00:24:50] Speaker C: Yes, I've heard you talk about this, that a baby just needs to be, and I'm so glad you brought that up because I want to try to reawaken that for people who feel like they haven't felt that in a long time, maybe even since being a baby. And I like to equate that to the experience of being in grandma's house. And a lot of people can, can relate to this. And if you can, I'm terribly sorry, but yeah. Where I remember when my parents would say, we're going to grandma's house for a week. And as a kid I was like, I would think a week. Like, what am I going to do at grandma's house for a week? We don't do anything. Why do we need to go for a week? It wasn't until I got much older in life that I was able to appreciate that grandma just wanted to be with me. She really just wanted to let me let my inner monologue out. And that was such a tangible example of being enough. Much like, we let our pets just be and we can just look at them, or maybe you're a parent and you can just look at your kid. It's like we've really lost our way with being. It's so productivity oriented, like I kind of mentioned before, and we should be proud of the things that we do. I don't want to take away from that, but if we can't make a habit of making meaning out of it, that's where we experience what I call mud. So that's what Deb was kind of asking about. What is mud? I like to just say what the mud and mud really represents. Unresolved feelings. And there are two ways that mud commonly builds up. One is just sheer quantity. Take, for example, like, I didn't sleep well, and I've got meetings all day, and then maybe I'm not going to have lunch until three. And so now I'm tired, I'm cranky, I'm anxious, but I kind of know I've been here before, so I know what to do to be restored with, like, low level tasks, time to self, and some rest. I'll be okay in a few days. And so that gets me back to being best version of myself. The tougher mud is the mud that you go through for the first time, and you don't know how to resolve it for yourself. So let's say I've gone through an experience that is somewhat traumatic. I think because I've never experienced it before and I'm feeling anxious, stressed, and scared, or because I've never been here before. I don't know what to do. So the aftereffects of feeling anxious, stressed, and scared are only continuing. And why I'm not able to move out of this mud is because I don't know what it means. This is where we often have a decision to make. This is also where things like substances can kind of sneak up on you, because it's like, well, I don't like this feeling. What can I do to feel better? The world's just asking me to be normal, so how can I just project normal? This is where people can reach for substances or even escapism, right? And just try to feel a little bit better, present normal. But what I like to illustrate is if I were to tear an acL, which I've never done before, I know there are some really stubborn people that would just say, I'm fine. I'm just going to live with it. But how I would look to resolve the situation, I wouldn't start by looking at the list of all of the doctors that can help me. I would start at who else has torn their acL, who can help me understand this, and then help me make a decision on how is the best approach, what is the best approach to being or getting to that place of being resolved. So, yeah, when it comes to making meaning out of mud, I want to encourage people to look at those unresolved feelings. That's the first step out of SHame. Vulnerability is a massive step, but I think the FirsT step out of shame is being able to look at your unresolved feelings and accept them. Just accept them. It's easier said than done. I know, but accept those unresolved feelings, and when you can get there, you can start to say, all right, well, what is there to learn from me here? And what kind of questions can I ask? That's kind of the start to making meaning out of the mud. [00:30:22] Speaker B: Yeah, it reminds me of the quote, like, no mud, no lotus. [00:30:28] Speaker C: Yes, that's right. Yes, the lotus flower. Oh, my gosh. Yes. The lotus flower grows out of the mud. It needs the mud in order to grow. This is true. And there's this old story. You can check it out. It's called lotus flower grows out of the mud. But I love how the author says that the mud represents hardship in life and that hardship is essentially fuel. Fuel for how the lotus flower is going to look when it blooms. Yeah, totally. [00:31:04] Speaker B: I feel that way. Someone was talking to me about that they were struggling with their drinking and how they have a lot of regret. I remember what it was. It was More like she was regretting. It was taking so long, and she was asking me, like, did you feel that way, or how do you feel that way now? And I said, now with perspective. Yeah. I am grateful to have gone through all of that mud. My mud was drinking. I think a lot of people listening to this, your mud is your dRink, and that being stuck in the drinking. But now that I'm out of it, I really have perspective, that it helped me get to where I am now, and I wouldn't have this kind of freedom, this alcohol freedom that I have now had I not gone through all those day ones, had I not gone through the muck and the shame. I went through it and learned from it and then recognized other ways of doing it to bring me to this place that is so much better. Yeah. And there's the other saying, like, things don't happen to you, they happen for you. But again, when you're in it, it's really hard to see that and be grateful. Like, God, I love this mud. [00:32:30] Speaker C: Yeah, definitely. [00:32:33] Speaker B: Let's talk about more ways of getting out of mud, being vulnerable. If you are having all THESE depression, anxiety, suicidal thoughts, what are some ways we can navigate that? [00:32:49] Speaker C: Yes. And before I address that question, something that I hope, this is going to be bitter medicine. And be honest with you guys, this is going to be bitter medicine if you're in that place where that question that Deb's friend asked her resonates with you. Right. And she has the power of hindsight, and you kind of. The power of hindsight is not helping you right now. I want to point back to what Deb mentioned in her last episode, and this is really bitter medicine, but she said something that is just one of those so simple but so true statements. She said, feeling good all the time isn't real life. If you can accept that, that can really be your key into accepting your unresolved feelings. It can. It really, really can. I've seen it when people talk about acceptance and surrender. They've gotten past this. That feeling good all the time is not real life. Yeah. I hope that that is encouraging, even if it's a bit bitter. I apologize for that. [00:34:07] Speaker B: Well, I don't know if I found it bitter for me, for someone who has always put on a positive face. Right? Like, oh, has always been the people pleaser, happy all the time, pollyanna, blah, blah, blah. For me, it was a gift for me, like, pointing out, oh, my gosh, life isn't. You're not supposed to be happy all the time. That's not real life. In fact, life is 50 50. That's what you're referring to. I was talking about. Sometimes it's awesome. Sometimes it's awful. And for me, that felt like a gift and relief, because I felt like I needed to make it. I needed to feel good all the time, and I need to make other people feel good all the time too. And so when I could let go of that, like, a weight lifted off of me, like, oh, it's okay to feel sad. It's okay to feel anxious, lonely, angry. That's okay. That's normal. [00:35:12] Speaker C: Yeah. I've gotten to speak with a lot of people in recovery, and I know, that's not what this audience is, but something I've gotten to learn from them is just when they have gotten to overcome that point of overcoming their obstacles in life and what they've learned. And I'll always ask, when I get to learning that overcoming point, maybe the tipping point is, if you could have known this sooner, before it all spiraled out of control, would you have told yourself that? Would you have liked to have known? The answer is always no. Answer is always no. They might say, I wouldn't want to put my kids through it. But having gone through all of that adversity, that's what makes me who I am. I have so much confidence now in who I am. So, yeah, if you are in the mud, I'm telling you you're going to get there. I'm telling you you're going to get there. And keep listening to Deb's podcast for just ways to get there. She's handing them out. Yeah. Sorry, what was the original question? Where were we again? Vulnerability. I think we were just cracking into. Right. [00:36:34] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. I want to hear how we can be more. [00:36:38] Speaker C: Yes, yes. [00:36:40] Speaker B: And why it's. [00:36:41] Speaker C: Yes, yes. Vulnerability. Gosh, there are so many great experts on vulnerability. I'm thinking of, like Brene Brown. I'm thinking of. Even Simon Sinek talks about a good amount. Jay Shetty. And the common phrasing that you'll hear is. Or the commonality, I think, is that vulnerability really creates the space for healing. It allows the space for grace to come in for you to be able to start loving yourself. And I agree with all these definitions, and I want to add a really awesome perspective to vulnerability that I learned almost by accident. I'm a big fan of etymology, and etymology is the study of how words were formed and evolved over time. And one day I looked up vulnerability, and I found out that it comes from the latin root vulner. V-U-L-N-U-S. When I replaced Vulner with wound, I instead saw the. With new eyes. I guess I saw our ability to share our wounds. And that just made so much sense to me because I was like, yeah, if you want to make meaning out of mud, how can you do that if you've never been through it before? But what makes vulnerability tricky is that I think real courage, real courage is in finding those people that have the context for what you've been through. If you want to tell somebody on your commute about an argument that you had with your spouse, that's a cry for help. And there's a time and place for a cry for help. I don't want to discourage that, but you're more looking for a silver bullet than wanting to do the work. It's so scary to be honest and vulnerable with the people who have context for what you've been through because they can tell you what you're doing wrong. And that sucks. That sucks because it's so easy to slide into, man, I've been doing this wrong for six months, for a year, for two years. And it's really hard to face somebody who's going to tell you what you've done wrong. But it's the people who have the context that have the knowledge, have the wisdom for the questions that you want to ask about your unresolved feelings. They've got it. And, yeah, that takes courage. That takes courage. And so that's why vulnerability and courage really go hand in hand. That's something that Brene talks about a lot and something I couldn't agree more with, but I think courage, a bit more specifically personified, is in finding the people who have the context for your mud. That's scary. That's scary. That takes courage. Yeah. [00:39:48] Speaker B: Finding people who get it. Community. That is so key. So when you looked up the definition of vulnerability, the word origin of vulner was wound. [00:40:01] Speaker C: Yeah. Vulner. And that directly translates to wound. [00:40:06] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, people are more likely to talk about their scars than their wounds. I've heard someone say that, and I'm like, right. We can talk about it hindsight. But when we're in it, finding other people who are in it and get it is so helpful. [00:40:25] Speaker C: Yes. I like that analogy because it fits perfectly, too. Right. Yeah. When you're sharing an open wound, it stings. [00:40:36] Speaker B: Not literally. [00:40:38] Speaker C: Yeah. But when it's closed. Right. You can kind of be self deprecating and make jokes about it at the very least. Right. And you can say, oh, yeah, this thing. Yeah. And by the way, I always do that. Makes me think of just working in suicide prevention. It always catches my eye. I've learned to listen through my eyes, and I see the scars, I see the cuts, I see the self harm, and I always take the time to just be like, hey, how are you doing? And does it feel like you're growing? Does it feel like there's hope? How are you doing? Yeah. I don't know. That was just a random aside that as you talked about scars. Still something worth talking about, though. Definitely. Still worth talking about. [00:41:28] Speaker B: Yeah. What are other ways that we can help people? [00:41:32] Speaker C: Yeah. There are a lot of local and national resources. Now, a lot of, some of those resources have been aggregated. And I would point people to organizations like Nami. Nami. It's the National alliance for Mental Illness. There's also mental health America that has chapters in states across the country. And, yeah, there are a lot. I wish I could just list all of the resources that I know of, like man therapy. There are a lot that help aggregate resources local to your community, which is awesome. And then I love that there's like a bigger national push as well. Right. With nine eight eight, like you mentioned at the beginning of the call. That's so great that we've got that. That's going to be a model that other countries follow. I'm positive of it. I think Canada has already given it the green light and they're just figuring out the logistics. Oh, something I should add about nine eight eight is that it's going to route you to whichever state your phone number is in. So I'm from Oregon. I have an Oregon phone number. I live in Denver, Colorado. If I were to call nine eight eight today, I would get a responder in Oregon. Interesting. Yeah. Keep that in mind. That's not to say they can't help you. Just don't be shocked like they haven't done their research. That's just how they try to set up their resources. [00:42:58] Speaker B: Great. [00:42:59] Speaker C: Yeah. Does that kind of answer the question? [00:43:02] Speaker B: Yeah, I think the point is there is help out there and there's free help paid. Just, you can quick Google search in your own country if you're not in the United States, just to find help. And I know it's hard. It really, you know, just for people to know, like you're not alone and you can change and you're not broken. [00:43:33] Speaker C: Yes. If I can add to that, I would want to advocate for support groups, just like sustained support groups. One of the things my company advocates for is the fact that everybody deserves a community that they can share their feelings with. I personally think everybody has. Everyone deserves three kinds of communities. I'm going on off tangent here, but the one that we all know familiarly is the one that we're all familiar with is accountability buddies. And I kind of refer to accountability buddies as the people you do life with. When you see them do it, it reminds you that you can do it and that you should do it or whatever you're holding each other accountable for. And the ones that I want to promote are like the heart healers. And your heart healers are people in life that help you be and typically they are people like moms, therapists, other just close friends. And what they have in common is that they ask awesome questions. They just ask questions like grandma at grandma's house, and they just help you be. And then the third group of community that I think everybody needs is your correction officers. These are for a lot of households. They can be dads, but they can also be coaches, mentors, your more enforcing kind of figures. And they help enforce. Sometimes they are actual correction officers, too. Right. But they help you enforce those things that you say you're going to do or help you enforce the person you say you're going to be. But, yeah, just along the journey. I find myself advocating for support groups a lot because, yeah, just everyone should have a group that helps you be, and that's a great place that you can find that. So, yeah, men's groups, other support groups, whatever brings you together, just keep showing up. Just be so good for you. [00:45:36] Speaker B: Yeah, it's great. [00:45:38] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:45:38] Speaker B: Well, anything else you want to add that we haven't talked about yet today? [00:45:43] Speaker C: Oh, man. Deb, I've got questions for you. Do we have time for questions for you? [00:45:47] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:45:47] Speaker C: Okay, fantastic. Yeah. As I've come to be a fan of yours and heard you on different podcasts, I've heard people just light up at the alcohol free, badass title that you've created. I wonder, how early in your journey did you come up with that, and how has your journey changed since then? What has that done for your confidence and how you show up? [00:46:12] Speaker B: Oh, that's a good question. Well, you talked a lot about how you like the meaning of words, and I find a lot of people get kind of stuck on labels, and I did, too. It kept me stuck, like that label of alcoholic. I was like, I don't identify with that. And then there's alcohol use disorder, and then there's gray area drinking, and then there's sober. And I think people can call themselves whatever they want, but we do kind of like to have a label, something that is symbolic of our identity, whether that's like, I'm a mom, I'm a wife. Those are labels, too. And so I think I initially just kind of did it tongue in cheek, like, yeah, I'm an alcohol for you. Yeah, I was kind of laughing about it because I'm a mom in Idaho. I'm not really, like a badass rocker or anything like that. So it's kind of tongue in cheek, but then it just stuck. [00:47:15] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:47:16] Speaker B: And I have some dear friends, people in my community, that kind of latched onto the name, too, and we shorten it to Afba and we just call ourselves, like, the Afbas. [00:47:26] Speaker C: Love it. [00:47:26] Speaker B: Yeah. But I found it to be really empowering. Like, I'm alcohol free, a badass, like owning. So that's. That's how I came up with it. [00:47:39] Speaker C: Love it. Are you selling? [00:47:42] Speaker B: Know, I did have a little store for a little bit, but I don't. [00:47:46] Speaker C: All right. All right. I think that's so great. And then a couple of questions to just kind of get to know Deb a little bit more. This could be fun for your audience, and this might kind of put you on the spot. But as I love to advocate for community, I think that one thing that helps is looking at man. What are the things that I haven't said? What are the things that I have left unsaid? So this question is to try to hopefully awaken this for other people, too, is who is somebody that you just admire? And if you haven't gotten to tell them for some time what you admire about them and how great they are, the impact they've had on your life, who would a person be and what would you tell them? [00:48:35] Speaker B: My mind actually went to some of the people in my community that don't give up. I can think of a few that are so supportive, caring, just amazing human beings. And they give so much support to other people, whether to their family or especially to the group. And even though they're struggling still with their drinking, they haven't given up. And they persevere. And to see them now start to change and get more days behind them and just start to grow their confidence, that is so inspiring to me. That to me, I'm like, wow, those people are my heroes. And I'm so proud and honored to be a part of their lives. And I know it sounds cheesy, but what I really see out of it is are these ordinary, average, quote unquote, people. And I think the other thing, I think that as society has really blamed the person and really, like, this whole label of an addict or an alcoholic. Right. Also wrapped up in that is a lot of language behind, like, well, and some of it is true. Some of the language is like, you don't know how to cope. You haven't learned to cope. Coping skills. You're not emotionally mature or whatever. I freaking hate that because the people I have worked with are some of the most caring, emotionally smart people who have just become addicted to this substance. They're amazing people. And going back to that worthiness thing, we were talking about before, like what you put, the beverage you drink doesn't make you a bad person or a good person. Right. You are not good because you don't drink and bad because you do. I mean, you are inherently worthy no matter what. [00:50:54] Speaker C: Yes. [00:50:55] Speaker B: And so I really want to get that across to people. Those people that just keep coming back and persevering. Damn. They are people I admire. Wow. The grit, everything. [00:51:11] Speaker C: Yes. Fantastic. Fantastic. I mean, you're the omniscient editor, so you can edit this out. But is there anyone that you would say just by name that's just like, hey, you rock. Not, maybe not last name, maybe just first name. And that way they kind of know who you're talking. [00:51:31] Speaker B: Could call. You know who I'm going to call out? I'm going to call my afbas because I have just a separate AFPA group. And they know who they are. [00:51:39] Speaker C: Yes. [00:51:40] Speaker B: Some of their names start with a K and an M and a C and another M and another M. Yeah, they know you got. [00:51:53] Speaker C: It. You can't see it, but you're getting a heart from Deb as well. Fantastic. And, yeah, I hope that those letters and just hearing Deb think of actual people does the same, kind of invokes the same for others. Okay, I got one more question for you. This is my favorite question. Yeah, I used to do a little podcasting. I just didn't have the time to keep it up. But this is my favorite question. I think it's the best question there is. And that question is, again, very much putting you on the spot. But learning about Deb, what is the best compliment that somebody could give? [00:52:32] Speaker B: Oh, well, I just got a really sweet compliment again, going back to one of my applesas. They sent me, like, this adorable video of. It was a little boy leading. He was driving his little tractor, and then the back of his tractor were. I don't know how he did this, by the way, Jen, but he had chickens and rabbits, and he went by and he patted them all, and he got in this little tractor and he led them away. And you can see him going through a cornfield. He's got his dog by him. He's got some goats walking by him. Yeah, but she said that, and she said, this is Deb and helping us. And to me, I was like, that you thought of me. [00:53:27] Speaker C: Yes. [00:53:28] Speaker B: That I could be thought of as someone that's like taking care of creatures, of humans, of people, and helping. That is ultimate compliment for me. Yeah. [00:53:41] Speaker C: Amazing. You're the first person I've asked hundreds of people this question, I have it all written down. You're the first person to paint, like, a visual like that, like a full on video, which was so fun. So that's awesome. Yeah, that's as much as I'll press you today, Deb. But thank you so much for sharing and for leading. So, yeah, fantastic. [00:54:05] Speaker B: Thank you. Well, tell people how they can find you. [00:54:08] Speaker C: Yeah, sure. So for me, you can find. Pensive is my company. We're trying to be a social being app. The app is about sharing your feelings with people. We're the only app out there that has a feelings wheel that you create. It's just a skeleton for you to create and then share with your friends. The social media stuff where it fails us is not everybody needs to know how I'm feeling. And, yeah, it's also all about doing right. LinkedIn is about what you've done at work. Instagram is the top 1% of what you do. It's all about doing. Doing. This is a place to just be. And we need a digital space for that because life does move fast and we've got people all over. So, yeah, that's pensive. It would be awesome if you checked it out. It's spelled P-E-N-C-I-V like a pencil, to try to bring back that nostalgia of writing and. Yeah, so that's the app. Check it out. You can check us [email protected]. pensive. Or pensive media on Instagram. Yeah, I think the other thing that I would promote, if it's okay, is a new month is always a good time to just kind of turn a corner. I don't know when this will be out, but, man, if you could, for me on the suicide prevention journey, just. I dare you to knock on somebody's door and show up with a pizza and just hang out for a couple of hours, and they're probably going to ask you why. And you can tell them, I just wanted to be with you. And they might ask, what's wrong? And you can laugh because you know what I know that is, man, we actually just need a bit more practice being with each other than with them. We thought we did. So that's my challenge for people. If people would be so kind to meet me on that. Yeah. And I'm also going to plug. This is so random. I'm going to plug Deb Masner's. Did I say your last name right? [00:56:15] Speaker B: Mazner? Yeah. [00:56:16] Speaker C: Maisner. [00:56:16] Speaker B: Sorry. [00:56:17] Speaker C: Deb Maisner's episode on women Ness, the women Ness podcast, it was published recently. It is just a perfect depiction of what is that journey of self identifying a problem in your life, like truly any problem in your life. It was so good to hear and it made me look at myself in a way that was helpful, that was tough, that was honest, and I was just like, wow. Credit to the hosts there for guiding in such a great way with their questions, like true heart healers over there at women Ness. But yeah, I really think everyone should hear that episode as a way to practice being so there's my second dare to your listeners. [00:57:07] Speaker B: Deb, awesome. [00:57:09] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:57:09] Speaker B: Well, thank you so much for all you do and having this conversation and many, many more. And I will put those links in the show notes and I'm glad that we got to meet. I really appreciate you and this was a great conversation. So thank you. [00:57:27] Speaker C: Thank you. I give you all the flowers. It took a chance on me based on not a lot of information, let's be honest, I think just a very passionate email maybe so. Yeah. Thanks for taking a chance on me, making space for me and giving me the platform to speak to your audience. It was an absolute pleasure. It was an absolute pleasure. [00:57:47] Speaker B: Thank you. [00:57:50] Speaker A: Thank you so much for listening to this episode of the Alcohol Tipping Point podcast. Please share and review the show so you can help other people too. I want you to know I'm always here for you, so please reach out and talk to me on Instagram at alcohol tipping point and check out my website,, for free resources and help. No matter where you are on your drinking journey, I want to encourage you to just keep practicing, keep going. I promise you are not alone and. [00:58:19] Speaker B: You are worth it. [00:58:20] Speaker A: Every day you practice not drinking is a day you can learn from. I hope you can use these tips we talked about for the rest of your week, and until then, talk to you next time.

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