Spontaneous Sobriety and Finding Connection with Sonia Kahlon

Sonia Kahlon and Alcohol Tipping Point-20230417_112946-Meeting Recording Deb: Welcome back everybody. Today on the show I have Sonya Callen. She is a recovery coach and founder of Ever Bloom, which is an online community that provides small group recovery meetings with supportive peers and a recovery coach. Facilitator, welcome to the show, Sonya. Hi. Thanks Sonia: for having me. Deb: I'm, I am looking forward to just hearing your story, how you went from being an orthodontist to now founder of ever Bloom, and you're a recovery coach, and just where you're coming from and how you got here, basically? Yeah. Sonia: I mean it's definitely been like an interesting career path. I feel like I don't know how you got into nursing, but I was given like three options as like an, my parents were Indian immigrants and it was like, do you wanna be a doctor, a dentist, or a pharmacist? And I was like, just pick the one in the middle. Yeah, let's go with that. And so I don't think I ever really had like a burning passion for it. I liked it for sure, and I liked working with like teenage kids, but yeah, so, so I was so lucky that orthodontics is kind of different where you don't actually work. On the patient directly, like you have like 10 assistants. And so it was easy to expand an orthodontic practice. So I got to like seven locations and then got approached to sell the business and that was like the greatest thing that ever happened because at the time for the past decade, I had been just like drinking super heavily and like my mental health was. Spiraling outta control. I think it was a combination of, I had a, probably a drinking issue before the business started and then like with zero coping mechanisms for stress. Just like it, it took off. Deb: . Can you share about your experience with drinking and how it became a problem, and then how you unwound that? Sonia: Yeah, it's like now, because I've had some time like of sobriety to look back like it, it clearly started when I was very young and so I probably started smoking cigarettes when I was like 13 and drinking when I was 15. And I, like, the first time I drank, I was like, We have arrived. This is it. This is what I've been waiting for. I'm super anxious kid and super insecure and it just like opened things up for me. And yeah, and then I just kind of binge drank all through college and dental school and my residency because I would have exams, so I would just kind of, it would moderate the frequency of my drinking. So, I would like not drink for weeks and then like after exams would just like, Total disaster. Like just oblivion, like getting things pierced like, and like, just like falling off curbs and like yeah, like there were consequences, but they were so like limited in time. And so yeah, I stick like, you know, stuck with that until I graduated and started working and then started a business and then it just, Kind of turned into something else where it was like, oh, I'm, it wasn't just to go out, it was like, oh, I'm gonna come home and have a glass of wine while I make dinner. And and it never was a glass of wine. I'm not, it didn't, it didn't progress. Like most people are like, oh, first I started with a glass. Then it's like, no, it started at like half a bottle to, and then it went to like a bottle of wine. And so yeah, that was pretty much it. I knew, I knew for a really long time that there was a problem many years. Deb: And then how did you unwind it? How did you quit drinking? Sonia: I think that I had been thinking about it for a few years, not quitting, thinking about like there's a problem, and then when that offer came to sell the business, I was like, there's gonna be nothing to moderate my drinking now. So it was like, well, I don't have to get up for work really early the next day I'm gonna be home earlier. I'm still gonna stay at the company, but it would be like a normal. Schedule like a nine to five, which I had never done. And so I knew that I didn't have any, like in the last decade, I hadn't developed like any coping skills, any hobbies, any interests and other than drinking. And so I thought this is gonna be bad. And so I just tested out like a couple of days. I hadn't taken a day off drinking in a decade, not a day, like not. Flu, not a surgery. Like I just kept, I was like hardcore. I just kept going. So you were Deb: consistent? Yeah. Sonia: That's one thing. That's one thing that stayed the same. You can really count on me. Like if you ever get arrested, like I'm probably the person to call. I'm very reliable. Like, yeah. And so I just was like, let me test out a day here and there, and it was. Excruciating. But that also was like, okay, there's a big problem here. I can, I can barely get through one day. And so I just had a really vicious hangover one day and I was out with a girlfriend of mine to brunch and she was pregnant and so she couldn't drink. And I know the waiter came over and was like, do you want a mimosa? And I was like, no, I don't. And I like never said. To a drink. And I just was like, okay, this is it. This is it. This is the day. And then I remember going back home and being like, oh my God, I'm not gonna drink tonight. Like, oh my God, oh my God. And then just kind of one day at a time, like next day, I was like, oh my God. Well we made it one day, maybe we can make it too. And so, yeah, just kept going Deb: and that. So that mimosa lunch that turned into a Noosa lunch, that was like your last drink and you were. Yeah, it's, it's a Sonia: bizarre story because it's like, I think then people are like, well, was your drinking not like really that bad? And I'm like, no. It was like it, yeah, it was bad. I just, I think too, like I had so much information, like I have so many alcoholics in my family. My brother's an alcoholic like I had, and clearly I had trouble going a day without drinking. And so I. I knew there was a problem. So that in a sense, made it easier to be like, okay, this, you, you're not, I didn't have to decide to moderate. There was no decision. Hmm. Deb: Yeah, I, I've heard this described as spontaneous sobriety where you just, and there have been a few, I've, I've had a few other guests that, and I call y'all unicorns, but a few people that have decided like, I'm done and then you're done. I think what, but like you said, you had been thinking about it for a long time. You knew that you had a problem, so part, part of it was undercover, and then when you took the action phase, consistency again, you just kept going. Yeah, Sonia: it was, it's like it happened really slowly and then all at once. Wow. So it was like I was going, going, going, and then probably a, a month or two before the actual day, I had gone, like, one day I had like, was like, I'm not gonna drink for a Super Bowl, and I didn't drink for the Super Bowl. And yeah. And so yeah, I am, I am really consistent. I agree. Once, once I make the decision, it's like we're doing, but I don't, I don't necessarily think it's like a willpower thing. I do think that, that I had made this in my mind. It happened, it was happening for. Deb: That makes sense. And then did you join any groups? Did you do any support? Like how did you continue and how have you continued? How long has it been now? It's been six years Sonia: and, oh, awesome. Yeah. And so at the beginning I was still in the practice active, like daily. And I remember wanting to go to aa. My brother had been in AA for a really long time and I, my husband at the time was. No. No. Like what if you bump into somebody we know? What if, what if, you know, you bump into a patient? What if you, and I was like, I don't know. I was like, it's anonymous. But I kind of like went along and I was like, okay. And so I just kind of did my pathway. I just like did everything I had ever wanted to do my whole life. And so, and that really did, I, I just made a full life that I had never had, and, I was writing and I was like making art. I did a photography certificate. I took like a class in everything. I took writing classes. Yeah, I started volunteering a lot and really just getting involved like with life, like in a way I hadn't been present before. And so that was like for a few years. And then I started feeling like I really want some sober support. And it, it actually happened. My brother relapsed and I didn't realize how strong a support he had been. And so when that happened, I think within a few days, I was like, I need, I need help. I need to, like, so I went to like my first AA meeting and it was fine. I like, you know, I like the people and I, I love aa. It just doesn't. The, the whole program doesn't like resonate with me, like the totality of it, but like, the parts of it I just love, like, I even, like, I love talking about the steps. Like I just love it, but it just wasn't for me. Because probably cause I'm so consistent, right? So I was like, if we're gonna do this, do it. And I didn't. Deb: So you've mentioned your relationship with your brother. My brother also is sober now, two years. You grew up growing up, being the child of Indian immigrant parents, and I'm just so curious, like in your culture, and I, I love learning about like different cultures and how they view alcohol, different cultures, different religions. So in your experience, what, what is the Indian culture like attitude towards drinking and alcohol? Yeah, so Sonia: one which is interesting, I'm really starting to understand like the cultural sort of implications too. Once I started to notice like, why am I not seeing any like recovering Indian people? Like where are, yeah. And so I think one, yeah, women don't drink right in that culture, like, and so even if they do, they're probably hiding it. I, I mean just, they just didn't, and men drank really heavily and. You know, just to like, they were very low functioning. They were just like getting arrested, getting in DUIs, getting in, like verbal altercations, physical. And so I think that when it comes down to it, like in that in our culture, there's no such thing as an addiction and there's no such thing as mental illness. So you can't, for example, you can't admit to that because everything is predicated on what everyone thinks of you. That is all that matters. And so if you come from a good family and it's like, well, if you come from a family with an addict or with someone with depression, then no one's gonna marry you. It's kind of like where that's sort of like the standard. And so yeah, it's, it's interesting because I remember even. Telling my parents like, oh, I stopped drinking. And they're like, oh, really? And then I remember being like, I, I started ever bloom. You know, it's for recovery. And they're like, oh, we didn't realize it was that big a deal. Deb: Interesting. Well, wait. If you come from like a family of, of really high achievers and, and you said they, your ex, the expectations were you would have to be a what? A doctor, a lawyer or a dentist, Sonia: doctor, dentist or pharmacist? Lawyer came like, I think lawyers before my time. I think that. Probably they were accepting lawyer, like in like the two thousands Indian people. Opened it up to like a lawyer, accountant maybe, but not, not in the nineties. Deb: Interesting. So interesting. And, but, but it sounds like appearances and keeping up your family appearance and not showing any mental health concerns or admitting to having problems like that just runs culturally throughout the Indian culture. It is Sonia: really like deep-seated, like very deep-seated to the point where there are like so many secrets in Indian families, like they. We're sort of like how white people were in like the 18 hundreds. That's sort of where we are, like with like our exploration of things. Like that's, yeah, we have a ways to Deb: go. Well, thank you for sharing that. So fascinating. Well tell me about ever Bloom and why you started it. Yeah, so Sonia: I had sort of finished up at the practice and was just doing stuff like, just keeping busy, like volunteering, writing about my sobriety. And I was just really happy. And so out of nowhere, and I mean out of nowhere, I know people are like, there had to be signs. My husband woke up one day and left. Oh, wow. And after 18 years he was like, He had been really unhappy with kind of like where he was in his life, but it was more like a him thing, not an US thing. It was like he didn't know what he wanted to do next. I sort of had like some sort of pathway and you know, I was still doing things and he just was like, I don't know what I wanna do. I don't know if I wanna start another business. And so, you know, he had been seeing like a performance coach and so we were working on it. And then one day I guess he thought the problem was. And, you know, on his way, sort of out the door was like, you know, you're, you are so much more introverted than you were when we met like 20 years ago. And you're so like into your family. And I am, I have like a girl gang. I have like two sister-in-laws that we're both married and divorced from my brother and three nieces and like we are like really tight and yeah, when you have five. Female best friends, you're not really, you know, like I had other friends, but I wasn't really actively trying to expand my social circle. And and the last thing he said was like, you're happy with too little. Like you're just happy with, like, you don't feel the need to start another like big business. Like I had kind of been like, you know, wishy-washy. He was like, well, let's start another align, like an aligner business. Orthodontic aligners. I was like, I don't wanna do that. Like I was really, I was, I didn't articulate it properly, but I was very committed that if I was gonna do something, it had to have a social. Like, and a big one. And otherwise there was no point. Like, I'm not, I'm not just gonna do something again, just for the sake of it. And so so he left. And I remember like for the, and the first time in five years, I was like, how am I gonna stay sober? What's the point? And I was in New York at the time and I remember I was walking my little dogs on the Hudson and like, just like staring at Jersey being like, Oh my God. Like my whole life is over and I'm in like this excruciating pain and I know for sure drinking would take it away temporarily. And I, I thought I had been working on this toolkit and like my sobriety toolkit and I was like, none of those things are gonna work here. Like there is no journaling, there is no Pilates or any, like, there's no eating healthy. That is gonna get me. Out of this and quick enough I think is actually probably the operative thing. Those things are not gonna get me out of it quick enough. But, you know, drinking a bottle of wine is gonna get me out of it in like, 10 minutes. And so I thought, okay, let me just, like, I went back to my apartment and I was like, let me try a meeting. One of my friends in New York who was sober had been trying these online meetings, like non 12 step. And so I logged in and it was like 8:00 AM and I went to that 8:00 AM meeting for like a couple of months. And so, and it just, it kept me, it really just kept me like connected and what was really amazing. I would say to myself, like these people, like especially people in the first like 30 days, were struggling so much, and I'm sitting here like whining about my husband, who's clearly a jerk, right? Like clearly the guy is not like, and I thought, what would they do to have five years of sobriety? What would they, they would do anything like, I owe it. I owe it to them to like, just keep going. Like, let's do another day, let's do another day. And the group was like around 220, 2 30, 230 people. And so I enjoyed listening. But there was no way I was gonna share. There just was no way. Like one I'm introverted. And two, like I really wanted feedback. I wanted a conversation. I didn't want I didn't wanna vent at like a Zoom screen. I didn't wanna just be like, my husband's so terrible, I can't believe this happened to me. I don't know how I'm gonna stay sober and then like mute and go on to the next person. Right. Deb: Oh, I, yeah, I, I'm curious how, how that worked with 200 people on a call because I run group coaching and calls them. We have like less than 20, so I can't even imagine 200 people. So, Sonia: yeah, that's what the interesting thing was. I was like, yeah, I it. So basically they do like a reading or, and then they say congratulations at the beginning. And then people put their hands up for shares and then they go in the orders, the hands went up and the shares have nothing to do with each other. They just, it's like boom, boom, boom. And you set a timer for two minutes and you keep going. And so as time went on, I really was ready to start talking about it. And. And I was talking about it with my friends and my family and my neighbors. But I really needed like a sober support and. I thought like, does this exist? Like there's, there's like small support groups for divorced women. There's small support groups for different, you know, things, but not for kind of like both. So I thought it, what I really need is I need like a sober. Support group of like people, a small group of people going through some sort of like life transition where they have to rebuild their lives and we can talk about the ups and the downs of this. And on days I'm feeling really bad, they can make me feel better. And days, you know, I'm feeling okay, I can, you know, make them feel better. And so, yeah, I looked for it, didn't find it, and then I thought, okay, if this is gonna be a business, like let's map this out. Like what does this actually look like? And. I just sort of like took a piece of paper and I wrote like sober in the center and I just like made these spokes coming out of it. And I thought like, what are all the, you know, horrible things that have happened in your life? And I was like, you know, I had imposter syndrome. And I was like, oh, so that could be a group people suffering with imposter syndrome and trying to stay sober. People are suffering from job burnout. I had job burnout, trying to stay sober, life transition, and then, you know, multiple, multiple groups of people in the. Like in early sobriety, the first 90 days, the first 120 days. And so that I just kept going and so I started interviewing people that I thought like would be potential customers, and I was like, is this missing? Is this something you would go to? And it seemed to be, yeah. And what was interesting is like I was sort of off base with like the, the group thing. I met like multiple witches who were like, we would love a witches sobriety group. And I was, Yes, this is what I'm talking Deb: about. That's kind of crazy, but yeah. Well, I mean, finding people, finding people who get it is so key. I, if you have friends and fam that because you end up feeling so alone when you are the, like, it seems like you're the only person in your small world, in your town, in your family that is struggling with this drinking thing. And so when you can find other people that get it, It, it's so comforting. It's so helpful. It's, it's really amazing these kind of connections and support. It is, and it's like Sonia: if you think too, like there's no one closer to me or understands me better than my sister-in-law's, but honestly was I really gonna say to them, I'm thinking about drinking and lay that on them after, like the trauma they have around drinking and I, yeah. It wasn't, it was, I gonna tell my neighbors, I'm thinking about drinking. No. Like for some reason you wanna tell somebody who you know understands like what you're. Deb: Mm-hmm. Yeah. And, and the whole getting it thing, I just, I share this a lot cuz that always cracks me up, but like Bell Robert, bell Robertson, who wrote Tired of thinking about drinking, she equates it to, you know, some people don't get it to, it'd be like, if we were talking about corn on the cob and if it would be, you know, like I, I was, I was eating six corn on the cobs every. Am I gonna have corn on the Cobb again? Oh, I, I just got divorced. I think I'm gonna have corn on the Co. You guys. So for someone that doesn't get it to them, that's what they're hearing. They're like, I don't, I just, no, of course you're not. What's your obsession with corn on the cob? Love. I love that. I Sonia: use that. Deb: It's just kinda funny, but so true. Well, where did you come up with the name ever? Sonia: I was just like, okay, we need a name. And I just like kind of wrote two columns of words that I thought were sort of like fitting and then put them together. And then when this, these two came like ever and Bloom, I was like, oh, I love that. Like it really kind of described like the idea that your sobriety is sort of like evergreen, but also still changing and like my has changed so much. And so that there's still like a lot of growth. I think so, yeah. Deb: I, I've, I've talked to a few people that have gotten sober, given up drinking or whatever, and years down the line, like you, you were five years out. Then they decided, oh, I, I really should do something with this, or I should get support, or, I do, I do wanna talk to people about this. I, I think that's a more common story than. I even know about I, it just seems to be repeated again and again because I think a lot of people who don't identify as like alcoholic who don't go to AA and they get sober, they give up drinking, they still keep that part of themselves hidden. And maybe they're not sharing up their new workplace, they get a new job or with their new set of friends and, and so again, you're still kind of, I mean, it really is a part of you. It's part of your journey. It's part of your story, and it is important to share. I can understand wanting to not talk about drinking again and being tired of drinking and wanting to just be like, well, that's old. I'm fine. Yeah. Yeah. I think Sonia: like that. I think maybe what that comes from like, so I was always really comfortable. The term alcoholic as it referred to me. But what I've noticed with ever bloom is like most of the people don't identify with that label yet or ever. Right. And so I think that, I think a lot of people who aren't in any sort of group approach it like just as physical abstinence. And it's not until a few years later you're like, What, what was I trying the numb, like what was I pushing down? Like is it time to like look at those things now that like the physical and like the, I'm used to going out and not drinking part is kind of like I have that under my belt. Yeah, I totally, I get what you're saying. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Deb: Yeah, and I don't use the term alcoholic. I am trying to get rid of it because medically it's alcohol use disorder and it's on a spectrum, and so you don't have to use that term. And I think it keeps a lot of people stuck. It's so stigmatized. Yes. And I also see as you get further along and you're owning your alcohol free badassery. Yeah. Those kinds of words aren't quite as loaded for me anymore as they were at the beginning. Sonia: Yeah, I like, yeah, I feel that way. I'm like, you can call me anything like, you know, but I understand the reluctance for people, especially at the beginning, and I think, I think that's also what I've realized. There's so, so many people in ever bloom that are gray area. Drinkers. Mm-hmm. And the goal is not necessarily sobriety. And so like, where they can't go to aa, that's not even an option. And so I think there have to be sort of like other options. Like AA is probably not gonna change its language anytime soon. Deb: No. No. There needs to be a safe space to explore your relationship with drinking. Yeah, and that's why I run monthly breaks. I call them holidays cuz it's taking a break from drinking and evaluating your relationship without having to decide that you're done forever. It's just giving you the time and space to. You're drinking and, and have some people around that are going through the same thing that you are. Yeah. I mean, Sonia: do you feel this way? Like, if I had thought that was an option, like to take an alcohol and not have to make like a full, like black and white decision, like I'm never gonna drink again. Like I probably would've tried that earlier. Totally. Deb: Yes. Well, I always did dry months and I just gritted my way through 'em like dry January. Or I would have a race I was training for and I'd, I'd be like, okay, 30 days before, I'm not gonna drink. And to me that was just more and more evidence that I didn't have a problem. Wow. But I never really I wasn't ready to give it up. I really wasn't ready to give it up until I started learning more about it, until I did. I did Annie Grace's alcohol experiment, and that was really eye-opening and. Really paradigm shifting because before it was always you have a problem, it's your fault. Yes. Like the AA model. And this was another approach that was, Hey listen, alcohol is shipped for your health and it's addictive. And you know, marketing is behind all the scenes. So it gave me just another approach to changing my drinking and then, I started to slowly change my thinking about drinking until I could get to the point where I was like, I'm gonna divorce drinking before it was taking breaks. And then it was like, I'm done with this relationship. It's toxic. Bye. Sonia: And I think that's why though, it's a part of our identity, like it is a part of my identity. Yes. But not everyone wants that to be like, so when people, when we talk a lot in the group about like, what do you say when you go out and I'm like, I have like a sign being. Alcohol use disorder. Like I'm really, you know, but people don't want to advertise it. And, and that makes sense that they need other skills, like other coping mechanism, other way to explain what you know, is going on. And so, yeah. Yeah. But yeah, I think when you're in recovery all day, every day, it's like big part of who I am. Deb: Totally. And, and being proud of it too. I so Sonia: proud of it. Deb: Yeah. Yeah, I'm proud that I don't drink and that's why I call myself an alcohol free badass. You're going against the grain of society and all the drinkers out there, but it's something to be a proud of, to be proud of. Like I'm a non-drinker and I'm pretty fucking proud of that. Yeah, Sonia: I mean, what, so what percentage of your clients are alcohol free and. What percent are like wanna moderate? Deb: Well, that's a good question. I had sent out just kind of a general survey to my email list, and it was honestly divided in thirds. A third were divorce. They were done with drinking. A third were struggling and wanting to be done with drinking, and then the other third were okay with their relationship with drinking. So maybe they were moderating or whatnot. Yeah. Yeah. And as I found that, as I was doing more and more of these groups there it, and I can see how your ever bloom works cuz you're like, they're not, there's not just one support group for one type of person evaluating their drinking. There can be sober curious people, there can be people that are. And they're struggling and they have decided I'm done with drinking, but they're still struggling. And then you have the people that are still, you know, they haven't decided yet and they're taking a break. Sonia: Yeah, I'm surprised and like pleasantly surprised that how many people sort of are like, I think I have a problem, I wanna cut back and seeking a group. Like, you sort of struggle with that on your own, like I did for a couple of years. Like it's, it's really amazing and I think it helps so much Deb: to see what it does. It, it, yeah. That whole term, sober curious is, is a really useful, helpful term for sure. Yeah. Sonia: I love, I think that, I think that is what's letting that sort of like paradigm shift of like alcohol-free beverages and like, cuz they're not stigmatized as like, hey, this is like an odus or I don't know, is that what that's called? Those beers? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's awful. That was a stigma to be drinking that, but I feel like now it's like turning into something that if you drink it, you can either be sober, curious, sober, like nobody's asking. Deb: Definitely, definitely. Well, with Y all your years of being alcohol free, do you have some top tips or top advice you would share for people who are giving up drinking? Yeah, I Sonia: think m most of my advice probably comes from the time from around that the divorce, when I was really. Struggling with, you know, thinking about drinking again. And I think the something that really helped, and it's cheesy, but like the never question of the, the decision mm-hmm. Was huge for me. It was like, we are not gonna go back and like re relitigate this issue from five years ago. Like there was a reason. Maybe right now I don't feel like, you know, admitting what the reasons were, but there were reasons and they were solid and that, and the, I know all my stuff is really cheesy. The play the tape forward works so well. Like, yeah. I mean, they're just kind of like catchy ways to say like, you know, other like pretty serious principles, but play the tape forward. It's like, how, how many times should we do that in our life in general and we don. Like, I should do that more, not just about alcohol. I should play the tape formula and be like, if I make this decision, what's the likely outcome? And so that helps a lot. And I, I use it all. I still use those a lot. And and then one now that, have you read James Clear Atomic Habits? Yes. Deb: Love it. Yeah. Sonia: And so that to me, the whole that, that I like twin it with like this, the act as if sort of thing. It's like start seeing yourself as someone who doesn't drink or someone who doesn't drink more than two drinks at dinner. Like that's who you are. It's not like what you're trying to do, if that makes sense. And so I, that really, I. I wish I had been more like that at the beginning. It would've made it easier. Deb: Well, I liked what you shared about at the beginning you were doing replacement. Activities and you were getting curious and you were filling your time with other things besides drinking. Sonia: Yeah. Kind of like create a life. You, again, I'm so cheesy at Create a life you don't wanna escape from. Yeah. Deb: Yeah, I could. I could only speak in motivational quotes. And be fine. It could be a whole podcast. It was like a little Sonia: surprised how easily they're flowing out. It's like I meant to use like an actual sentence, like a unique sentence, but Yeah. Deb: Well, there's a reason why they're so popular and they, they connect. Yeah, I did used to think they were so cheesy and I did not like them, but I, I'm always posting some motivational quote or something. I, I, I think they're just, they hit more honestly now and, and I wasn't like very honest or authentic. I felt like when I was drinking, Sonia: Yeah, and I think also I, I don't, a lot of us, if, depending on when you start drinking, like from sort of the, when you start drinking heavily to when you quit, you don't really evolve that much. So you have like a lot of years of stuff to catch up on, and so I had like a decade's worth of relationships with my nieces to catch up on, and it was like, yeah, it's just so, so interesting that it's not, it shouldn't be that hard to fill your life with things that you had wanted to do because, you know, probably you weren't doing them for a while. Mm-hmm. Deb: It's, it's such, I see so much growth and transformation in people when they give up drinking. It is amazing. It's so like beautiful to watch. Sonia: Yeah. And I don't see it as much in people that will still give themselves. I'm gonna say this, not people who are moderating, but people who still give themselves permission to drink in a stressful situation. Mm-hmm. Like if things hit like a 10 outta 10 emotionally, then it's okay if I have a drink, I feel like that's where I'm trying to like work with people a lot to be like, that's when we're not gonna drink. Mm-hmm. You are gonna drink when you go to a dinner or a cocktail party. You can have a drink, but you are not going to drink when you have had a bad day at work. Deb: Well, when you can master the skill of being uncom or being comfortable with uncomfortable emotions that is gonna serve you in all areas of your life. Sonia: Yes. Like everything, it really does sort of. Yeah, it works with everything. And my toolkit eventually also worked, like it did come back. It like slowly. I did start journaling and it really helped and I did start eating properly again and it really helped and sleeping and so I think you don't develop that toolkit if when you're at a 10. You're still going to alcohol. Deb: Mm-hmm. And it could be something else too. We just kind of buffer our negative emotions cuz we don't wanna feel negative emotions even though they don't last, even though, you know, no feeling is final. It, it's, it's so easy to not feel things in modern day society. You can get pleasure from so many different areas, not just drinking, no. Yeah, it's so interesting. Sonia: Yeah, there are, there's so many, I mean, even the phone thing now, like sometimes when I, do you notice this too, when you'll be talking to people like, so like what do you think you could do to improve like X, Y, Z, and they're like, probably use my phone less. Mm-hmm. Okay. I don't necessarily have a phone addiction, so it's kind of like, yeah, that's a thing. That's a thing too. A way to like kind of numb out and like check out of what you know of your life. Deb: Yep. So easy. So easy. Well, what else do you wanna share that we haven't got to talk about today? Sonia: What's interesting, like what's been on my mind lately was the cultural thing, which is really interesting. And like, sort of like the mental health stigma has been on my mind too. I, someone asked me to, to talk on a mental. Podcast and I've only ever talked about sobriety. And I'm like, well, what do you mean? And they're like, we'll, talk about like your depression. I'm like, but it's obvious, isn't it? Like why else would I have been drinking? And it's not, I think, obvious to people that most. I don't know. What would you say most people or you know? Definitely a percentage of people that struggle with addiction. There is some, there are some mental health issues that are underlying, that have to be fixed for that sobriety. Mm-hmm. To last and I think, yeah. Deb: Well, I was just gonna say, it's. It's, it's this vicious circle of, is it the depression or the alcohol? Is it the anxiety or the alcohol? Because you create this, this vicious circle where it's the snake eating its tail and yeah. Sonia: Yeah, that's exactly it. I don't know if I consciously thought I was self-medicating. I don't, and I'm, yeah. That's really interesting. I, yeah, that, that it's only kind of, when you stop, can you really tell if they're an underlying issue with anxiety and depression? Deb: And I, what I have noticed is, for the most part, people's depression and anxiety alleviate. They just feel better there. There's so much of the alcohol that is contributing to it, so, so much. Sonia: And sometimes when you're drinking and you are being medicated for those things, if that's a vicious cycle too. Right? Because why aren't these medications working? And it's like, because you're throwing alcohol on Deb: top of it. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I'm guilty of that. I had been on antidepressants and drank the whole time on them. Wow. It has only been very recently that I weed myself off of antidepressants. Sonia: How was Deb: that? I, at first, and this is the first time I've talked about it, because I know that antidepressants are so helpful for people, so I don't want to be Encouraging people to go off any medication. Yeah. Especially as a nurse. Yeah. And antidepressants are ones you don't wanna abruptly stop. So you do. If you do decide like you've given up drinking and you are feeling better, do talk to your doctor about tapering off safely from antidepressants. I. Have felt great. I, I started my antidepressants after I had my first daughter. It was, it was more postpartum. I had anxiety and that was very helpful for me. Then I went off of them after she was like a year, got pregnant again, had my second daughter, and started the antidepressants again. A lot long, well, maybe five months later and had been on them ever since. Also, I, my drinking really, really amped up when my kids were little, especially once my daughter turned one and stopped breastfeeding. Yeah. After that, when they were really little, two and a half years apart, that's when I drink the most, so I still kept taking my antidepressants. I felt like, oh, I still need. Also, it was still drinking heavily. Now I haven't. Drank for over three years, so it did, I did stay on my antidepressant for quite a while. I reduced the dose. I was just kind of a little hesitant to go off of it, and so I, I just decided I'm gonna try it, I'm gonna try it. I do feel better. Overall, I'm on a low dose and it's, it's been great. I feel good. I do notice I am more teary. Teary-eyed. I'm more emotional. I'm kind of more all ranges of emotions. Wow. But it's going great. Sonia: That's amazing. How do you feel about medical management of alcohol use disorder? Deb: Oh, I think it's great. I think there's naltrexone out there. I mean, old school was an abuse. I don't know who's doing that anymore. People are doing. Sonia: Are they? Yes. I can't believe it either. That I feel like it's sort of, that it's so old school, like torture vibes, like Yeah. Deb: Oh yeah, that, that's the one. If you're listening, that's the one that you can't have anything with alcohol in it or you will vomit. And, and then there's another one camper that helps reduce cravings. Naltrexone, I think has been a real big game changer for a lot of people. Sonia: Yes, I know somebody who has a, like a naltrexone telehealth company. And people like the majority of people he's getting are people who don't want to tell their primary care doctor. Deb: Mm-hmm. Is that ORs, is that O A R S? Yes. I had, I had one of their representatives on the show. Oh, right. Sonia: Yeah. We were in, we're in the same business accelerator. Oh, that's so Deb: crazy. Yeah. Well, it is definitely a need. For sure. That's for Sonia: sure. I don't think they would've taken a chance on me if they hadn't done another. Kind of industry, alcohol abuse, industry specific business. But once, like when I pitched them, they were like, yeah, we just did. Or like, it's gonna be good. Oh, that, see Deb: I've love that. There are so many different options out there. I that's my whole goal of this show is just to show you there is not one way to change your drinking. There's not one right way to change your drinking. There's so many different groups and medicine and modalities and. So many different ways you can get support. I feel like that too. Like Sonia: I, I like, you know, you don't wanna say like, don't join my group, but it's like, I know it's not for everyone. Like I feel that like what we're creating is different and it's not for everyone. Not everyone wants to. Participate in that way. Not everyone wants to interact with the other members and like support and encourage them. They're kind of wanting to like figure out their own thing and that makes sense. And it's just, yeah, I think there need to be different options. I think I would've joined a group sooner if there had been, if I thought there were different options of how to, yeah. Deb: I've heard the analogy, it's like finding the combination to your lock, like your old school lock that was on your, your gym, on your gym locker at school. So finding the right combination that works for you and, and that's going to be different for everybody cuz we're so unique. But it's just wonderful to know like there's ever bloom out there. There's, or health, if you wanna do Naltrexone, there's reframe. You can come do an alcohol with me. Like there's just so many ways you can, of course, still do aa, you can do smart recovery. There's so many. Sonia: I know, I always encourage people who are in aa, it's like, well, you're not cross-talking, so go to aa, do your steps, and then come to ever bloom and, you know, chat with people. Mm-hmm. Like, it's a diff it's not, they're yeah, they're not mutually exclusive either. That you could do more than one type of like program or like, yeah. Meetings. It's interesting. Well, Deb: Sonya, I've loved our conversation today. I wanna thank you so much for coming on the show. How can someone find you? Sonia: So we are either join ever Bloom or ever Bloom on all social media. And then if you wanna check out a free meeting before committing, you can come to join ever bloom.com and click sign up for a free meeting and then check it out and see if it's for. Deb: Perfect. I'll, I'll put the links in the show notes. So, awesome. Thank you. Thank you so much. Thanks for having me.