[00:00:02] Speaker A: Welcome to the Alcohol Tipping Point podcast.
[00:00:04] Speaker B: I'm your host Deb Maisner. I'm a registered nurse, health coach, and alcohol free badass. I have found that there's more than.
[00:00:11] Speaker A: One way to address drinking.
[00:00:13] Speaker B: If you've ever asked yourself if drinking.
[00:00:15] Speaker A: Is taking more than it's giving, or if you found that you're drinking more.
[00:00:19] Speaker B: Than usual, you may have reached your own alcohol tipping point. The alcohol tipping point is a podcast.
[00:00:24] Speaker A: For you to find tips, tools, and thoughts to change your drinking. Whether you're ready to quit forever or.
[00:00:31] Speaker B: A week, this is the place for you. You are not stuck and you can change. Let's get started.
[00:00:44] Speaker A: Welcome back to the podcast. Thank you so much for listening. I really appreciate you. I want to take a sec to invite you to the next alcoholiday. It's a monthly dry group where I help people practice not drinking. This is for you. If you feel like you're struggling, if you feel like you're stuck, if you feel like you're broken, you're never going to get it. I want to just support you and arm you with lots of different tools to battle cravings.
Work on your thinking about drinking. Be more kind and compassionate to yourself as you're doing this. You know, drinking is a habit and it's probably something you've done for years or decades. Even so, it takes a while to unwind it. And that's why I'm so passionate about focusing on practicing, not drinking, working on progress, not perfection. I love the saying focus on the direction, not perfection. And I think it's important just to have these types of groups, programs that just give you a safe place that has no shame, no judgment. A safe place where you can just learn new tools and just start unwinding the habit so that it gets easier and easier for you to drink less or not at all. I would love to have you join the next alcoholiday. It starts the first of every month. As a podcast listener, you always get 20% off by using the code love love and it is hosted on a private platform. It is a HIPAA protected platform. It's really important to me as a nurse just to have privacy and a safe place for you. And what you get is daily emails, lessons, accountability. You get lots and lots of tools to battle cravings. You get a really detailed guidebook journal to help you out during those 30 days, 31 days, whatever the length of the month is. And then you get downloadable audio meditations. Just something to go to when you're feeling a craving. We also do weekly group chats, weekly group support calls led by me and another sober coach twice a week. And then there's also a private chat where you can just share with others, support others, and it's just a great place to practice not drinking. The cost is $89 us dollars. That is so it's less than $3 a day. Plus use that lov code to get your discount. And just a little background on me. I have been a registered nurse for 20 years. I'm a board certified health coach. I'm a smart recovery certified facilitator, an addiction certified mental health professional. I'm a mindfulness instructor. And then you all know I like to call myself an alcohol free badass. I've been alcohol free for four and a half years now, so I would love to see you in the next group. You can sign
[email protected] alcoholiday and join there. I also will link it in my show notes. Wherever you are with your drinking journey, just know that I am rooting for you, that you are not broken and you can change. Thanks so much.
[00:04:16] Speaker B: Welcome back to the show. Today, as a return guest, I have Peggy Cooney. I just had her on episode 173, which we called finding alcohol freedom in your golden years. It's never too late to change. And on that episode, Pekki talked about quitting drinking in her sixties. And it's just, just a really inspiring conversation that resonated with a lot of people. Peggy was just sharing how much feedback she got from it, and I got a lot of messages from it. So if you haven't listened to that episode yet, do check it out. I'll link it in the show notes. So I wanted to have Peggy back on to talk about the connection of trauma in childhood to addiction later in life. Some of you may have heard of aces or adverse childhood experiences, and they found that having a score of four aces increases your chance of having an addiction problem by 700%, which is shocking and scary. Kind of scary, too, because a lot of the aces are out of our control. However, many people don't know that there's an antidote to aces, and that is something called pieces, which stands for positive childhood experiences. And pieces is a term coined by Doctor Nazinga Harrison, who's an addiction specialist. And Peggy herself holds a master's of social work and has 26 years of experience in child welfare and adult protective services. She's currently working as a social work instructor and coach for UC Davis. And she's just passionate about educating people about aces and pieces, among many other things. So welcome back to the show, Peggy.
[00:06:10] Speaker C: Thank you so much. I can't emphasize enough how many responses I got from doing the show last month. So thank you for having me back.
[00:06:21] Speaker B: Yeah, thank you for being here. And I'll admit that I'm just now educating myself more about aces and pieces, and so can you just share what are aces?
[00:06:34] Speaker C: Yeah. It's so interesting because the study I could, yeah, it was actually from the nineties. So it was actually, what's so interesting is that really we didn't in child welfare anyway, really pay attention to aces until, until 2008 when we, when the state of California implemented safety organized practice. So safety organized practice is a, is a type of practice that we do in California that resulted from a federal review, actually.
And so it's trauma informed, built around safety. So what? It's such a beautiful way because when we work with families and trying to reunify families with their children, if they have to be separated from their kids, is that we stop judging when we say, why did you know we moved from, why did you do that? Like, why did you hit your kidney to what happened to you? And that has been such a major shift. I was really ready to quit being a social worker at that time and very grateful that safety organized practice came along where they actually, we actually agree with the family on what brought the family into the system and what it takes to get out of the system and really all built around safety and not about whether we think somebody is a good parent or. So this really fits in so well with so the original ice study was conducted by Kaiser Permanente from 1995 to 1997 with two waves of data collection.
Over 17,000 health maintenance organization members from Southern California receiving physical exams, compiled or completed confidential surveys regarding their childhood experiences and current health status and behavior. So this was really outstanding. The study showed as the number of aces or that adverse childhood experiences increases, so does the risk for negative outcomes in adulthood.
So it's one of those things, again, one of my things I love about Laura McAllen is one of her nine things. It's not my fault. It is your responsibility. And I love these kinds of ways that we can say, wow, that explains some of my current behavior. Now what, right now, how do I responsibly move away from that? And knowing that it's not your fault has, just like the families we work with in child welfare, it just takes the judgment and the shame out of it and the stigma out of it.
Why do I bring a the subject of aces up for, like you said, four more aces is still the tipping point for those experiencing having an adverse effect on your personal, physical, or even mental health and finance, even finance can come from. And I think that's so interesting because for me, I actually have five out of ten. We might talk about those later, but financial responsibility, actually, financial irresponsibility got me in my early adulthood and alcohol addiction in my late fifties. So it's so interesting about this study. And again, it changes the fact that it changes the fact of what we, our opinions to trauma informed practice. And it's just really outstanding.
A little bit of a trigger warning for people that aces include these things. Did a parent or other adult in the household swear at you, insult you, put you down, or humiliate you, or act in a way that made you afraid or made you feel physically hurt?
Two, did a parent or other adult in the household push, grab, slap, or throw something at you? Ever hit you so hard that you had marks or were injured?
Number three. Did an adult or person at least five years older than you touch or fondle you or have you touch their body in a sexual way, attempt to or actually have oral, anal, or vaginal intercourse with you? Or did you often or feel very often feel that no one in your family loved you or thought you were important or special? Your family didn't look out for each other, feel close to each other or support each other? Five, did you often or very often feel that you didn't have enough to eat, had to wear soiled clothes, and had no one to protect you? Your parents were too drunk or high to take care of you or take you to the doctor if you needed it?
Number six, were your parents ever separated? Our divorce.
Number seven, was your mother or stepmother push you, grab you, slap you, or at least have something thrown at you? Sometimes, often, or very often kicked, bitten, hit with a fist or hit with something hard?
Eight, did you ever live with anyone who was a problem drinker or alcoholic or who used to use street drugs?
Number nine, was a household member depressed or mentally ill, or did a household member attempt suicide? And did. Number ten is, did a household member go to prison?
And what's so incredible about this?
You know, I love what Maya Angelou says. She says we do something until we learn better, and then we do better. Well, this aces study was done in the nineties. It was all white, white adults. And so we evolved, right? And we take a basic study and we enhance it. The Philadelphia Ace project just recently expanded the aces to include the impact peers and community play. I love this because this is something that was totally missing in the original study. So those are, overall, did you feel unsafe in the neighborhood you grew up in?
Number two, have you ever been bullied by someone you didn't live with, which is so big right now? Right. Number three, did you often feel there was no one in your life who helped you feel important or special?
Number four, did you often feel that you were treated badly or unfairly because of your race, ethnicity, economic status, learning disabilities, or other part of your identity, including religion, gender, sexuality, or something else? And number five, which is dear to my heart, were you ever in foster care?
What I love about the aces is that, again, really looking at it in terms of what happened to us as kids and how that impacts us as adults is so important. I remember when my own parents would have knocked down drag out fights that often ended in one parent leaving or long periods of time where they didn't speak to each other. I cried in my room, my head under my pillow. These fights were usually fueled by alcohol. That's two aces. Violence and alcohol. I was 16 when they finally divorced. That's three aces.
I often had no idea which mom I was going to come home to from school. That's another ace for a depressed parent.
And when I was twelve, I remember one of my parents best friends coming into my room at night, acting in a sexual way. That's ace number five for child sexual abuse. I never told my parents. I never left their side when we subsequently visited this person and his wife. And my mother never asked me why I.
The other super important part of aces is that each one of these, all 15, have the same effect.
So lots of us that grow up, I wasn't severely sexually abused. So what you do is you sort of compare your aces with other people's aces and go, well, God, my trauma wasn't bad as your trauma, so I have no reason to talk about it.
But what's so beautiful about this study is that every ace has equal weight.
So if you have four aces, the more you have increases your susceptibility to, you know, to problems as an adult. But sexual abuse and having a divorced parent have the same weight in your brain. Your brain looks at trauma. It doesn't distinguish between traumas.
And so we start to feel normalized around the fact, well, what, you know, my trauma is not as bad as yours. Well, so what? It has the same effect in your brain.
[00:15:45] Speaker B: Yeah. Thank you for sharing those and your personal faces, because it is so personal and things that we don't share a lot of. And I appreciate just this approach and I guess the normalizing of that, this happened to you and it wasn't your fault.
And having it make sense, like, wow. I mean, I just think about as you were reading that off, and it actually makes me think more of my mom, who, who really overcame her aces to promote more pieces in our family. Now that I look back at it in hindsight, and it's just, oh, you just want to go back to those little. Those kids and just hug them and love them and just in. And seeing people as adults and seeing the choices that they make. When you were sharing, you started changing how you asked questions to parents, like, what happened to you.
[00:16:58] Speaker C: I love that you brought. You brought this up a little bit last time we talked, and you're bringing it up today. You didn't grow up in a particularly ac family. Right. And so sometimes we feel guilty about that, too. Oh, my gosh.
[00:17:11] Speaker B: Peggy.
[00:17:11] Speaker C: Yes. What I love is doctor, doctor Harrison at the end, we had her, we interviewed her on GPE about a month ago, and that's what she said. She said they have two sons and they. They concentrate on, like your mother did, creating the least amount of aces that they could. Right. I love that. I absolutely love that because it's not. You're. You are going to have one or two aces.
[00:17:41] Speaker B: I do. I do.
[00:17:43] Speaker C: 70% of the population have at least one 8th.
[00:17:48] Speaker B: What was that percentage again?
[00:17:50] Speaker C: 17% have at least one ace.
[00:17:53] Speaker B: 17% have one ace. And then what about the rest of the people?
[00:17:57] Speaker C: I don't really have it handy right now. Oh, okay. Just curious and it'll be fine. But, yeah, so I love that. I love that when people are listening to this and if they're young parents, it's not about what you've done to your kids, but it's really being aware of aces and how they do affect children and to minimize how, you know, to be conscious of it, you know, and know that. That you, as parents, have a huge amount of capability to reduce the amount of aces that your kids experience.
[00:18:29] Speaker B: Yeah. And I think people listening to this who are drinkers. Right. Or maybe find that, like, oh, gosh, you know, I've created aces for my own children unintentionally and have all that guilt.
What's your advice for that? And maybe when you start talking about the pieces, the antidote will help, but, you know, like, it brings up a lot of guilt as a parent.
[00:19:00] Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it does. But again, if you're. If you are not drinking, you are present for your kids. One of the best things about the Nazinga interview was that at the end, she disclosed that she and her husband have been alcohol free for six months. Oh, that was so fun. Because I had no idea. I had absolutely no idea.
And what I love about this is that if you are not drinking, you have a huge, a huge advantage because you're there. Like my mom, for instance.
Don't you think she might have asked me a question after going to my, their best friend's house for years and years and years. Right. I was twelve by the time this happened when, when he came into my room completely naked.
Is that, I think when you don't drink and your kid all of a sudden starts sitting right next to you when you go visit them, you might ask why they're doing that. Does that make sense? Yeah. My mom never asked me why I, every time I went over there, I sat right next door.
[00:20:12] Speaker B: Yeah. And she probably didn't even know, like having the tools, you know, they were.
[00:20:18] Speaker C: Having their cocktails and all of that. I think, I think being alcohol free gives you the ability to be totally present and really pay attention to that intuition that happens to you, that gets, that gets diluted when you're drinking.
[00:20:33] Speaker B: Yeah. Well, let's get into the. Do you have anything to add about the aces and how they're connected to addiction and drinking? We see the data, but is there anything else there that makes sense for the addiction or the mental health concerns?
[00:20:56] Speaker C: I think it's just knowing about, again, knowing about aces and really being aware of that and knowing, I think, again, really looking at the fact that they all have equal weight, I think that is so important because we really do minimize our trauma so much. We just have a habit of that. And I know just even I really, until, until I became an adulthood time.
[00:21:25] Speaker B: Yeah.
A lot of people do. And then they have hindsight and then they get more knowledge and they're like, huh, I kind of need to rethink this. And a lot of people who have quit drinking may find themselves where they're like, wow, now I'm kind of remembering why I drank. And I think it makes sense that we would turn to substances to self soothe and self comfort if in our own environment, our house or environment. Like, I think adding those additional questions about the bullying and the environment you live in.
[00:22:06] Speaker C: Yeah, genius. And so timely. Yeah. And we just need to be educated about. I think this is one of the most profound studies ever, that's ever come across. And I think one of the other things, especially with your background and anybody in the helping field, if we don't really look at our own aces. How can we help other people that have their aces?
Like when I teach, I'm always talking about the fact that we're aces people, working with Aces people. So unless we really take a look at our own ace history, how can we be really effective with other people? Because we do work with other people through our own trauma lens.
[00:22:54] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah.
Well, how about pieces? Because this is one I'd never heard of until you reached out and said, let's talk about this.
[00:23:05] Speaker C: I'm going to actually quote from Doctor Nissinga's book because it's such a good. I can't put it any better than her.
So she says, if the ACE study is the most important test you've never heard of, it's about to get knocked out of that number by one spot. By pieces. Pronounced pieces. Pieces stands for positive childhood experiences. The staggering data that has come out of the ACE study tells us an important story.
But it's only part of the story. Yes, there are people with a high ACe score who find themselves at greater risk for poor health, including substances, depression, cancer, and even poverty. But there are also people with a high ACE score. Doctor Nazinga Harrison, who is a board certified psychiatrist, has a high ACE score.
It's not because I'm somehow super human or lucky. This is doctor Nizinga talking. It goes right back to my childhood, if you can believe it. The same childhood that gave me a high Ace score gave me a high P score as well. As it turns out, even when odds are stacked against you with adverse childhood experiences, there are seven positive childhood experiences that can help counteract negative impact.
Think of your aces like an overstuffed duffel bag that you have to lift up and carry through life. Your pieces can function like wheels on the bottom of that duffel bag, decreasing the chance that you sprain your back while carrying the load. I just.
[00:24:41] Speaker B: Wow.
[00:24:41] Speaker C: Again, she is just my current Taylor Swift.
Absolutely.
[00:24:48] Speaker B: You're a fan.
[00:24:49] Speaker C: I absolutely love her.
Researchers recently discovered that the positive interactions you had as the child, the strong bonds you created when you were young, and the valued support you were offered by others can lift you up. And when we talk about this, all start thinking about that one or two people that were your people, even when the aces are trying to drag you down. Adults with peace scores of six or higher were more than three times as likely to get their emotional needs met from their circle, and 72% less likely to suffer depression or mental health difficulties. I just love this.
We've all, you know, for years, years we've talked about how aces affect us, but I love solutions.
Yeah, I love how. How do we. How do we change the effect of aces?
A piece of score of three reduces your risk of mental health difficulties in adulthood by 50%. 50%.
That's incredible.
So this is what she says. While I encourage you, as well as all the parents I encounter, to intentionally strive to increase your own child's peace score, the effort shouldn't end when you hit 18. This is the other part I love. Just because those of us who are over 18. What I love about peace, as she goes on to say, is that even if you didn't have these experiences as a child, it's never too late. Research shows you can still shore up your pieces as an adult. And, boy, are we doing that in the recovery world. It's amazing.
While we can't control what happened to us as children, we have an opportunity to lessen the grip those experiences have on us as adults. Adding pieces in childhood will let you do just that.
These are the pieces. So I want to talk about. Those are seven. How often? And I'm hoping the readers or listeners? Readers. I'm a writer, so I have a hard time with that.
How often as a child did you feel able to talk to your family about your feelings, feel your family stood by you during difficult times, and it may be a sibling that does that. Right.
Enjoy, participated in community traditions, feel a sense of belonging in high school, feel supported by friends, have at least two non parental adults who took genuine interest in you and feel safe and protected by an adult in your home.
But it just takes one.
[00:27:38] Speaker B: Yeah. So powerful. Wow.
[00:27:43] Speaker C: It's so cool. And I realized how resilient I am as an adulthood came from that.
I kind of got all wrapped up in how many aces I had. I could arguably say I'm six, not five. But it. But what it's like, what we do, what I've dedicated my life to, is I'm alcohol free now. What?
It's that growth after that makes the difference?
[00:28:12] Speaker B: Absolutely. I mean, those are. And I think you'll talk about, like, how you can encourage and foster those pieces in your adulthood and with. If you have children and people around you, it's not just your children. Like, maybe you don't even have children, but you are around. Like, how can you influence the world around you, the people around you, the community, all of that?
[00:28:42] Speaker C: How many people that don't have children by choice or are not by choice, end up being someone's special person.
[00:28:51] Speaker B: Mm hmm. Special aunts. But yeah, yeah.
[00:28:56] Speaker C: I mean, you know, on Mother's Day, I often write about that because I. I think mothers, you know, again, I'm as a social worker, my little social worker heart, you know, goes out, you know, I have friends that could never have kids. So childless. Not by choice, right? And honoring those people because they are all special people to someone else. They are all mothering other people, whether they're biological mothers or not. I think it's. You know, this just warms my heart. I wanted to share one of my special people, if that's okay with you.
[00:29:31] Speaker B: I would love that.
[00:29:33] Speaker C: This is a part of my book. So one of my non parent adults who took a genuine interest in me.
So getting sober has made me reflect on people, places, and things that I haven't thought about in years. This week, I've been thinking about my mother's best friend, Hazel Kincaid.
She and my mother were inseparable. Our families went on vacation together for years. Those vacations, especially the annual ones to Yosemite National park, were highlights of my childhood. Hazel was a strong, tall, redheaded norwegian woman. With the most gigantic, amazing boobs I ever laid eyes on.
I was in awe of them. She often wore a slightly see through white blouse, and I could see the outline of her brae. Hazel had a special name for me, Miss Piggly Wiggly. And I don't know why giving me a nickname felt so special. It just seemed like a cool thing to do. I often had sleepovers at her house. Where she and I would make crumb cocka cookies. A norwegian waffle cookie made of flour, butter, eggs, sugar, and cream, baked on a cone shaped hot iron. Sometimes she would fill them with whipped cream and lingonberries. I think of Hazel whenever I walk into an ice cream shop. Where cones are baked in house. And the aroma of vanilla brings me right back to her immaculate kitchen.
Everyone else in my life made me feel like it was almost pretty, almost smart enough. Hazel made me feel like a beautiful and brilliant princess. She had a way of making me feel like I was the only little girl in the world. And then at 19, when my nine month old daughter died of Hazel came through again.
When others were telling me, you're so young, you can have more children, it was God's will. This was a blessing, in a way, because now you can start your life over. And so many other insensitive and inappropriate things that I internalized. Hazel wrote me a letter telling me how she lost her first child. And how she managed to live beyond the pain. I was blown away that this happened to her, too.
Her letter came just in time when I didn't see the point of living without my daughter. I so wish I had kept that letter. Hazel's words gave me the courage to move forward when no one else could.
Sobriety has given me the chance to be a hazel to others.
Take the time to be a hazel.
[00:32:05] Speaker B: Oh, my gosh. That's tearing me up. That was beautiful. Thank you for sharing that and writing that.
[00:32:12] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:32:13] Speaker B: Just special woman, what special memories you have, and I love that. Thank you.
[00:32:21] Speaker C: Well, thanks.
[00:32:24] Speaker B: So how can we foster more pieces in adulthood?
[00:32:30] Speaker C: Yeah. She has four ways. Look for people at turning points. New neighbors. I love these. These are so practical. New neighbors and church members. You move to a new place or new neighborhood, or maybe you've been in the same neighborhood forever and you've never reached out and you feel like, mel, you know, now I have time to go to church, and maybe now I have time to get involved with other things, or maybe a new neighbor moves in that you want to befriend. So look for people at turning points.
Number two, do something on a regular basis, like meet up, like hiking, pickleball, art exhibits, museums. What else? I know one of the women that I went on to Bali with, she's just a freshly retired lawyer, and she picked up art docent, you know, before she retired. And now she's, like, on national boards and meets people through that medium.
Consider untapped circles. Consider seeking out friends at work, your kid's teacher, or other parents. I know that my own daughter's social circle revolves around the other parents that play softball and soccer and football. And, you know, all the things.
Join a group where there's connection calls. I know you offer them. We do. At zero proof experiences. Sometimes the obvious are right in front of us.
And ask your friends for help. You'd call a friend and ask them to make an introduction. If you were searching for a job or seeking a mentor, why not ask them to connect you with other people they think will click, that you will click with Suzy. And I do this all the time, my partner at CPE. And I know before I stop, before I put my wine glass down, I didn't feel like I was worthy to ask somebody else to hang out with me. And I am so comfortable now. And sometimes it doesn't work. Sometimes I've met people and we didn't click and we just part ways. And it was a nice lunch, right? And other times it turns into so much more. But reaching out and asking people to be on your blanket for is one of the coolest ways to get. To get. To get more pieces in your life.
Yeah.
[00:34:54] Speaker B: And this, I love it because it's all. It's in adulthood. Right. And so you're counteracting the effects of your difficult childhood. Whatever happened then, it gives you some control, some choice. And I think it just always keeps coming back to the feeling of belonging, the connection.
[00:35:19] Speaker C: Absolutely.
[00:35:20] Speaker B: Yeah. And I was looking at the pieces again, it's like feeling able to talk to your family about your feelings, having. And as an adult, like having someone you can talk to about your feelings, feeling your. Feel your family stood by you during difficult times. So having a friend, some support that is standing by you, participating in community traditions, again, that's that connection, that belonging.
And one of the questions was feel a sense of belonging in high school.
And we want that in our work. We want that throughout our lives again and again. It's that. I mean, I think we're just so wired biologically. We're humans. We're animals, though, and we belong in a. In a tribe, in a pack.
And so we're always looking for the safety of the pack and that you're not going to get pushed out and. Oh, my gosh.
[00:36:26] Speaker C: Yeah. And, you know, we're also biologically wired to run from threats, perceived threats. We're five times as, you know, we pay attention five times more to threats than we do reward. So we really have to.
Which alcohol free living gives us is to take that pause and go, is that thought I just had, really, truth? Because it's probably not right, because we make up all kinds of reasons not to connect with people.
[00:36:55] Speaker B: We do.
[00:36:55] Speaker C: We do. Because we're afraid that we will be rejected and we're afraid of those threats. And it cracks me up now because you know what? Before I stopped drinking, I was, you know, I was a pretty successful instructor and I won a lot of awards, but I had such bad self esteem, like, you know, always thinking, oh, my God, if they really knew me, they wouldn't like me. And I. And I so don't feel that way anymore. And, you know, you, you know, we. We meet people in this field that are, you know, like Doctor Nizhne Cutter.
Like, I would have never asked her to come on and be a guest for our show. I would have never done that five years ago, six years ago, because I would have been too intimidated by her. And I get turned down sometimes, but most of the time, I don't. Most of the time, I can argue my guests coming on our show because I'm so passionate about it. I'm not afraid to show how passionate I am about it.
Yeah.
[00:38:02] Speaker B: And you have this increased confidence, too. I think once you accomplish something like quitting drinking, with it comes this confidence, like, wow, I can do anything. If I can do this, I can do anything.
[00:38:19] Speaker C: It's true. It's absolutely true.
[00:38:21] Speaker B: Yeah. Well, what are some other things that we can learn from aces and pieces?
[00:38:31] Speaker C: You know, I just feel like the more. Well, here's what I would say. I would go, you can google adverse childhood experiences and take the test yourself. I think that's really important. She does talk a lot about the fact that when you do this work, when you're doing aces work, you really don't want to do it by yourself. You want to be around people that can support you, that you can talk about. I love what you just said about sharing your feelings about some of the things with people that are safe. It's interesting. And again, I'm very open about my life. My brother is not talking to me right now. He hasn't talked to me for almost three years.
And this all comes from my book, which is not about him. In fact, in my book, he's probably portrayed as my.
As my savior.
It's not like he was a, you know, part of anything, but he was, you know, he was involved in the death of my daughter, and not. He wasn't responsible at all. It just happened at his house.
And so I think bringing, you know, writing this book and bringing this up, he has a lot of.
Yes, he has a lot of aces to be thinking about and working through, and I'm not sure if he ever will do that. We were close our whole entire lives, and it hurts. And I know every three months, I just reach out to him. I send him a picture. I told him about my knee surgery. I send a picture of our new grandbaby, Ryan, because he was very close to my son and hope.
And I don't know if this makes sense, Deb, but even though I would love for him to reach out and I hope we break the ice someday, I don't have any feelings of, like, oh, my God, I'm a horrible person because I've done everything I can do. And I think this happens a lot in people's lives where we get healthy and it sort of leaves people behind. Does that. Does that make sense?
[00:40:41] Speaker B: Yeah. And that's kind of the case with your brother.
[00:40:44] Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:40:47] Speaker B: And do you think it's probably. Maybe he's protecting himself in some way?
[00:40:54] Speaker C: Totally. He's a great person. Like, totally. Now, if anything, like, he probably had the least addiction issues in our family. Like, he. Listen, you know, he wasn't my. I have an older brother that's almost 40 years alcohol free, and I used to think he was a freak.
[00:41:15] Speaker B: So. So you recommend, like, maybe do a little if you're ready for it? Because I think it sometimes a fine line between picking out a wound, you know, like, and letting it heal. And I think people, a lot of people, it's like, okay. They get kind of confused. Like, how much should I investigate my childhood? I'm a 70 year old woman. How much should I investigate my childhood?
How do I do that? How do I move forward?
You're like, how much should I be dwelling in the past instead of living now, focusing on the future? And do you know, I'm gonna unabashedly.
[00:42:04] Speaker C: Tell everyone to get this book.
[00:42:06] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:42:08] Speaker C: I'm not kidding you. Everything she has in here, whether you have an addiction problem or a food problem or whatever it is, this is, you know, I used to. I used to think that, and I still do. This naked mind alcohol.
I love the science behind things. I absolutely love it. But this. This is, like, the pinnacle of what we need to know about addiction.
[00:42:36] Speaker B: Yes. And it is called unaddicted.
[00:42:40] Speaker C: Un addiction. Un addiction.
[00:42:43] Speaker B: Un addiction. It's by Doctor Harrison.
[00:42:46] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:42:46] Speaker B: And the tagline is six mind changing conversations to change your life.
[00:42:53] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's beyond. And so this is a really safe book to be able to, you know, go through by yourself and really look at the questions that. It's a very protective book, because what I love, and she was flattered that we said this, but she's a giver of hope, and I am definitely a giver of hope.
I feel like social workers, their main goal in life is to give families hope. And she does this hands down.
[00:43:30] Speaker B: Yeah, hands down hope dealer. I will definitely link that in the show notes, too. Checking out that book, for sure.
And then as well, like, seeking therapy.
[00:43:46] Speaker C: Yes. You know, I was hoping you would say that, too. Yeah. I mean, I'm currently not in therapy, but, boy, I've been, you know, in therapy for five years, and I think that's a really nice sort of wrap up for this, is because I went to a lot of therapists my whole life.
You know, I had a lot of loss, lost my parents, my baby, all within 18 months. When I was 19, the first therapist I went to hit on me.
I mean, you can, you know, I'm 72 years old now, but I was I was an okay looking 19 year old, right. And I ran out of his office.
And also, I'm a trained social worker, so I know what to say to therapists. I know how to b's them. I know how to tell them what, what I really, this could be another topic someday, but interview your potential therapist.
And if you're out there going, you know, I kind of dread going to my therapy this week. It's probably not the person that you want to be talking to. And I was there, too. I was there several times. What I loved about my therapist, who is a psychologist she taught at UC Davis for a really long time, is that I came to her and said, actually, this is sort of funny. My husband brought me to her to fix me.
[00:45:16] Speaker B: I really didn't.
[00:45:16] Speaker C: I was pretty, I was stubborn about talking to her at first because, but she was so on to him. She totally, she was on to him with the first, with the first session. So she had me after that.
And I remember distinctly telling her, you know, I grew up, you know, in this sort of home. A lot of my parents died when I was 19. I lost a nine month old when I was 19.
And I said, but look at me now. I'm fine.
And I've been able to say that to every therapist I've had. And she goes, whoa, wait a minute.
Or not fine. It still took me two years before I told her I had a drinking problem, even with how good she was when we just never went there. I mean, she went there, but I totally lied about it. And the day that I came clean with her, I had the best three years of therapy of my life just to finally tell her I, you know, what had happened. Right. And you have, they work for you.
And therapists ask good questions, and therapists don't tell you what they think you should do. They help you figure out what your next steps are.
Really basically, to me, it's a lot like social work where we, we figure out what's working in somebody's life, what we're worried about in somebody's life, and what are the next, next steps you're going to take to move towards healthiness? Very simple.
I'm going to actually do a workshop in Seattle on three questions for a nice little life because I live my life around the three questions. What's working? What are we worried about? What are we going to do next?
[00:47:11] Speaker B: Yeah, those are like great check in questions.
And so I hear you saying, like, shop around, find a therapist you resonate with and look forward to.
[00:47:25] Speaker C: And.
[00:47:28] Speaker B: The other kind of lesson I got out of that was practicing radical honesty.
[00:47:36] Speaker C: Yeah.
It's so interesting because she. I think she even knew that I wasn't really being honest, but she was letting me have my own time to talk about it. But she totally called me on the fact that, because what are we as women? Right. And I don't want to get too far off this. Okay. But what, you know, as women, or even as men, too, like, the message is, at least it was for me, is, you're fine. Just get up. You're fine.
You're, you know, you just.
You probably need stitches, but you're fine.
[00:48:10] Speaker B: Well, yeah, and it's just you were checking all the external boxes and, you know, married with children, successful career, you know, on the outside, you were fine. Right. It's the inside that matters the most.
Yeah. We just never know. Well, I love the hope that this conversation has. I will definitely recommend for people to check out your book, the sight of alcohol and check out doctor Nazinga's book. I put that down there. We do a book club. We've been doing kind of a seasonal book club in one of my groups, and that sounds like a wonderful book to do.
Yeah, yeah, and yeah. For people to just check out aces. Check out pieces. Be kind to yourself as you're doing this.
Going back to it's not your fault, it is your responsibility.
Well, how can people find you this?
[00:49:24] Speaker C: Sonofalcohol.com. also, I have a 22,000 private.
I always laugh when I say that in the same sentence. People go, is this. Is this site private? Like. Well, as private as 22,000 people could be, I'm sure. But Facebook. I'm on Facebook as this side of alcohol. Also, you know, Instagram as well, as well as I'm a partner, obviously, that we've talked about this, you are going to be one of our featured presenters in Seattle for sober and the city. Seattle on September 6 through the 8th. I can't wait to meet you in person. I just.
[00:50:04] Speaker B: Yeah, I'm so excited. I love connecting and meeting people in real life. And again, that's some of the pieces, right? Finding people who you can talk to will get you being in a community like, you've created this community with sober in the city. Like, oh, how great to get people together who are alcohol free, sober, curious, and just experience life without numbing out. I love it. I'm looking forward to that. And thank you. Thank you so much.
Thank you so much for listening to this episode of the Alcohol Tipping Point podcast. Please share and review the show so you can help other people too. I want you to know I'm always here for you, so please reach out and talk to me on Instagram alcohol tipping point and check out my website, alcoholtippingpoint.com for free resources and help. No matter where you are on your drinking journey, I want to encourage you to just keep practicing. Keep going. I promise you are not alone and you are worth it. Every day you practice not drinking is.
[00:51:12] Speaker A: A day you can learn from.
[00:51:14] Speaker B: I hope you can use these tips we talked about for the rest of your week and until then, talk to you next time.
